Slobodan Milosevic dead?

And the Chechens asked for help as did the Rwandans… (…) The fact that they chose to act outside their brief in this case when in so many others they have refused is the problem I have with them.

I can understand your view on this, as I also find it somewhat frustrating. However, “just” because little or nothing was done in places like Rwanda and Chechnya doesn’t mean that one shouldn’t have intervened in Bosnia. I simply don’t buy this “we shouldn’t have helped anyone since we didn’t help all of them-” argument. Political and public support, interests, double standards, selective morality, convenience; the soup has many ingredients. Does it sometimes bug me? A lot. Does it mean that we should adopt a universal policy of passivity and appeasement in order to be completely “clean” and “fair” in every context? In my honest opinion: No.

If you want a final solution then let them fight.

So even diplomacy doesn’t mean anything to you?

I don’t share this principle, not in this case anyway.

You have your own opinion on this issue and I respect that. Please try to respect mine and get over it.

Do you think if the UN went into Israel and imposed a solution there that suddenly everyone would get on and peace would be created?

I don’t know about the UN, but I believe that the US could do a thing or two there, although it would be very hard to find a common and mutual solution which would calm the extremists on both sides.

Like Rwanda, Chechnia, Yemen, do I need to complete the list?

I actually agree with you on this one, so there is no need to push it.

And how will they earn money to live if you take away the one product the west will buy from them.. not that they get much money for it.

I hope they will be able to come up with better solutions as the process moves on.

There are reports circulating that Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic, on trial in the Hague for war crimes, has been found dead in his cell.

as yet, i don’t think it has been confirmed.

anyone know anymore?

good

For the x’th time: The Muslim/Croat Federation asked for an intervention, and they got it.

And the Chechens asked for help as did the Rwandans… NATO nor the UN were obliged to help… peace making is not their role. The fact that they chose to act outside their brief in this case when in so many others they have refused is the problem I have with them.

The Serb elements of the JNA took the initiative in Slovenia and Croatia, and Bosnian Serb elements did the same thing in Bosnia. You can twist it all you want; the Serbs were the prime aggressors and the UN along with NATO saw it fit to take on the BSA in order to stop the fighting.

They were acting to secure the rights of Serbs in what amounted to new countries. Creating new countries ignoring ethnic boundries can lead to problems… look at the middle east. But for what the serbs did NATO and the UN is doing now in Kosovo… creating countries based on ethnicity.

First the argument about NATO’s out-of-area operations, and now this. Gee, Garry.

Attacking a neighbour from your home bases is a home game and an out of area operation as Yugoslavia has never been a NATO country and nor has Kosovo. Can you explain to me which NATO country was attacked that NATO had to be mobilised to defend?

Better to do something than to allow the killing to resume.

Except the something you are doing is picking one side and killing people on the side you don’t pick.
If you want a final solution then let them fight.

Do you think if the UN went into Israel and imposed a solution there that suddenly everyone would get on and peace would be created?

A hell of a lot better than to sit quietly on the fence with your eyes and ears closed, waiting for things to pass by.

Like Rwanda, Chechnia, Yemen, do I need to complete the list?

Just because you hear or read a bunch of bad things in the not-so-broad-minded media doesn’t mean that there isn’t any progress being made.

My nephew has been briefed on the situation there. He is going there next month.

The efforts to reduce this will be increased as ISAF expands further south in the country.

And how will they earn money to live if you take away the one product the west will buy from them.. not that they get much money for it.

The main problem with Bosnia was that people from different ethnicities and religions lived scattered around the country,ie. there was no 3 specific ortodox,christian and muslim parts of the country.Each lets say village wanted to join its side but as you know you cannot form a country from many fragments scattered around and not in contact with each other. Due to this ,the hostilities started becase the Serbian wanted to protect the area’s where Serbians lived in Bosnia and Croatia and the other two sides their own.

That is pretty much my impression as well.

Speaking of Afganistan,i do not why NATO force dont act even if they know that 70% of worlds opium production comes from there.This opium poisons many people around the world and in EU especially.

You are right about the production of opium in Afghanistan. The efforts to reduce this will be increased as ISAF expands further south in the country.

The main problem with Bosnia was that people from different ethnicities and religions lived scattered around the country,ie. there was no 3 specific ortodox,christian and muslim parts of the country.Each lets say village wanted to join its side but as you know you cannot form a country from many fragments scattered around and not in contact with each other. Due to this ,the hostilities started becase the Serbian wanted to protect the area’s where Serbians lived in Bosnia and Croatia and the other two sides their own.

Speaking of Afganistan,i do not why NATO force dont act even if they know that 70% of worlds opium production comes from there.This opium poisons many people around the world and in EU especially.

Every country has problems… including NATO countries.
What right does the UN or NATO for that matter have to go in and be judge jury and executioner in what was a problem in one former country?

For the x’th time: The Muslim/Croat Federation asked for an intervention, and they got it. The Serb elements of the JNA took the initiative in Slovenia and Croatia, and Bosnian Serb elements did the same thing in Bosnia. You can twist it all you want; the Serbs were the prime aggressors and the UN along with NATO saw it fit to take on the BSA in order to stop the fighting. Belgrade wanted the war to come to an end (at least that’s what they said at the time), and they knew that something had to be done in order to stop the BSA. The National Assembly of the Republic of Srpska wouldn’t listen to Belgrade. Enter NATO. It worked. It was not a good solution (using force never is), but there wasn’t much else to do at the time, seeing as Belgrade failed to convince them. The fighting was ended. Lives were probably saved. The three parties got their own territories. The EU has continued the effort to get Bosnia back on its feet.

You may think whatever you like about it.

They only play home games, or they will tour if the US will foot the bill (which it will when oil is at stake).

First the argument about NATO’s out-of-area operations, and now this. Gee, Garry.

And when was the last time it was sucessful at peaceMAKING?

You know what happened at Wright-Patterson AFB in late 1995. Better to do something than to allow the killing to resume. My experiences with you tell me that this is where we collide, and that we may never agree on it no matter how we twist and push it.

So you think peace imposed by an outside force is a good thing?

A hell of a lot better than to sit quietly on the fence with your eyes and ears closed, waiting for things to pass by. Again, I think this is were we definitely don’t share the same rock, and I doubt that we’ll be able to sit together in the nearest future, if ever.

Yes… just as well the US and Britain and New Zealand are there isn’t it… I mean imagine what it must have been like under the Taliban… having to be declared insane to avoid being executed for changing religion and having to flee the country just to convert from Islam to Christian… oops, no, that is under the democratic US supported current region, yes, things have improved in leaps and bounds…

You should confront someone who knows more than me about the recent development in Afghanistan. ISAF is expanding into more peripheral areas and will increase its efforts to stabilise the country. Just because you hear or read a bunch of bad things in the not-so-broad-minded media doesn’t mean that there isn’t any progress being made.

Serbs were forced out from Croatia because they wanted independence — NATO plains bombed their positions during the final ethnic cleansing of Croatia.

As far as I know, NATO wasn’t involved in what happened in Krajina during the summer of 1995. NATO aircraft only struck ground targets in Krajina on one occasion in November 1994.

Besides, the Republic of Srpska wanted to stay part of Bosnia after the war, didn’t they?

If they weren’t real problems, then what is?

Every country has problems… including NATO countries.
What right does the UN or NATO for that matter have to go in and be judge jury and executioner in what was a problem in one former country?
Where do you draw the line?
Is it around Europe?
Will NATO send a force to Northern Ireland if problems start there again?
Has NATO become the Imperial upholder of civilisation for the world, the way Britain, France, Spain, even Germany and Holland and Denmark once did?

How remote is the conflict and so on. I don’t see any grounds for your argument about NATO and economical interests as a leading factor, though.

They only play home games, or they will tour if the US will foot the bill (which it will when oil is at stake).

Let’s not forget that the UN is/has been involved in numerous operations during the time of its existence.

And when was the last time it was sucessful at peaceMAKING? (Peacekeeping is something completely different… and has little to do with Yugoslavia).

Korea is still an open sore… but they didn’t learn from that did they?

Still, I believe it could have been something if the member states had been more willing to give the organisation what it both needs and deserves; bigger and sharper teeth.

So you think peace imposed by an outside force is a good thing? Has it ever actually worked? Half of the problems in world have been created that way. Tito had peace by force… what happened when the situation changed?

Besides, I thought the independency issue had been shelved? Perhaps it is best if Kosovo remains with Serbia, now that Milosevic is gone?

Quite the contrary.
9 March 2006

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4788592.stm

Talks on its status begin soon and there will be a definite result by the autumn. Many in the international community (is that the same as what used to be called “The Great Powers”?) want full independence.

But what has always disturbed me about Tolkien’s classic is the lack of any possibility of redemption for those born within Mordor’s boundaries. There is no such thing as a good Orc. I only hope the “Great Powers” know that while this may be unsophisticated in fiction it is plain stupid in real world politics. Some Serbs, and some others, behaved like demons incarnate in the last decade. Now many feel their whole country and race has been demonised.

From that article at the bottom in the reader comments this is interesting:

I’m terrified of double standards: – Independence of Serbs from Bosnia or Croatia is not acceptable. Independence of Albanians from Serbia is. – Serbs were forced out from Croatia because they wanted independence — NATO plains bombed their positions during the final ethnic cleansing of Croatia. NATO forced Serbs out of Kosovo and bombed Serbia because Albanians wanted independence. – Some people that are war crime suspects in the Hague tribunal are presumed guilty and cannot be politically active. Others are instead sent home to lead a political party (Seselj-Serbian vs. Hardinai-Albanian example). – We want one warrior dead or alive (Mladic) but put another (Taci) to be the prime minister of Kosovo. – You apparently cannot sue someone for an aggression if you are not a member of UN. Serbia sued NATO countries and that case was not accepted on the base of this technicality. Serbia sued NATO but you cannot sue an organization for anything like bombing — that case is not covered. Bosnia sued Serbia and that case was accepted. If you still remember hurricane Katrina this sounds like a famous example of “white people looking for food” and “black people looting” (for a picture showing white/black people taking some food from a flooded grocery store). You make the conclusion.
Alex, CA,

Actually, the trafficing problems here mostly involve individuals from the Baltic countries, according to the media.

And how do you think that will change when Kosovo gets autonomy and NATO and the UN leave?
When the Soviet Union split up and suddenly companies were spread across borders, parts manufacturers suddenly wanted US dollars for parts instead of local money… it has taken 10 years to get over that in Russia… how long, and how many handouts will Kosovo need to become financially viable?

This is not meant as a counter-argument, but Belgrade isn’t exactly Europe’s shining beacon when it comes to low levels of organised crime, either.

They have a stable and growing economy… what has Kosovo got… other than an open hand for euros?

Well, at least someone put an end to Mr. Zeljko Raznjatovic, although it would have been better to put the guy on a trial.

Notice the Serb so called war criminals seem to die in custody or during capture, while the so called war criminals from the other side get voted president or PM. (I say so called because they don’t seem to make it to trial).

Like assisting the people of Afghanistan?

Yes… just as well the US and Britain and New Zealand are there isn’t it… I mean imagine what it must have been like under the Taliban… having to be declared insane to avoid being executed for changing religion and having to flee the country just to convert from Islam to Christian… oops, no, that is under the democratic US supported current region, yes, things have improved in leaps and bounds…

After pumping trillions of dollars in weapons into the country in the 1980s just to hurt the Soviets, I’d have thought spending a few billion making it a nicer place to live would be the least they could do.

Of course if the US’s CIA had simply ignored the country nothing would have happened in the first place.

So you think it is acceptable for NATO and the UN to interfere where money or oil is at stake but ignore real problems?

I don’t see how this question fits with the Balkans issues. If they weren’t real problems, then what is? I’ve already told you what I think about the conflicts in Rwanda, Sudan etc. As you say, selective morality probably does apply here. How remote is the conflict and so on. I don’t see any grounds for your argument about NATO and economical interests as a leading factor, though.

Let’s not forget that the UN is/has been involved in numerous operations during the time of its existence.

Department of Peacekeeping Operations

Still, I believe it could have been something if the member states had been more willing to give the organisation what it both needs and deserves; bigger and sharper teeth.

thanks to NATO and the US, a sovereign nation is a stroke of a pen away from becoming a new country… I am sure you think it was the right solution now… but that pen stroke was neither performed in your interests or anyone elses outside Washington… you assume your needs will always coincide with those suits?

Kosovo again? In that case, you know what I said earlier. Besides, I thought the independency issue had been shelved? Perhaps it is best if Kosovo remains with Serbia, now that Milosevic is gone?

You’re probably lucky they couldn’t find Norway on a map…

😀

The world isn’t that simple, Garry. Even if something were to happen, our secret killer penguins will deal with whatever comes our way…….wait….oh cr@p, did I just say that?! 😀

but now that Europe and NATO has saved the Albanians in Kosovo I am sure you will find more and more arriving on your doorstep… their reward for manipulating your media… your reward… well I guess you’ll find the extra drugs and prostitution fun for a while.

Actually, the trafficing problems here mostly involve individuals from the Baltic countries, according to the media.

This is not meant as a counter-argument, but Belgrade isn’t exactly Europe’s shining beacon when it comes to low levels of organised crime, either. Well, at least someone put an end to Mr. Zeljko Raznjatovic, although it would have been better to put the guy on a trial.

don’t bother coming up with reasons against intervening when they can’t be bothered intervening.

Agree.

Still as long as the economy is OK who cares what our government does… to other people.

Like assisting the people of Afghanistan?

I rarely support arguments like “we didn’t do anything/care about that, so why should we do anything/care about this?” It’ll only keep us from moving on.

The real issue is why does NATO/UN interfere in international issues.

The UN is an international forum for debate and discussion of international issues. NATO is a military force that is used because it has nothing else to do.

If you are suggesting that using such forces morally is wrong then tell that to the politicians. They create the problems by coming up with moral reasons to intervene, yet don’t bother coming up with reasons against intervening when they can’t be bothered intervening.

Very Amusing that the last act of imperialism was to give democracy to Iraq. More amusing because of the countries involved… The US, The UK, And Australia… three countries where their governments plans to invade Iraq were very unpopular locally but their respective governments chose to do so anyway. In all three countries democracy was given its chance to shine but of course none of those leaders lost power simply because although they were unpopular the alternative was considered worse… hooray for democracy!!!!

Still as long as the economy is OK who cares what our government does… to other people.

I rarely support arguments like “we didn’t do anything/care about that, so why should we do anything/care about this?” It’ll only keep us from moving on.

So you think it is acceptable for NATO and the UN to interfere where money or oil is at stake but ignore real problems?

I guess it’s much about realpolitik, which is a basic issue with most sovereign countries.

Thanks to NATO and the US, a sovereign nation is a stroke of a pen away from becoming a new country… I am sure you think it was the right solution now… but that pen stroke was neither performed in your interests or anyone elses outside Washington… you assume your needs will always coincide with those suits?
You’re probably lucky they couldn’t find Norway on a map… but now that Europe and NATO has saved the Albanians in Kosovo I am sure you will find more and more arriving on your doorstep… their reward for manipulating your media… your reward… well I guess you’ll find the extra drugs and prostitution fun for a while.

Djnik:

You’ve got some relevant points, and I support some of them. A lot of things can be said about the US and the West; double standards and selective morality as GarryB points out, are clearly among those things. I guess it’s much about realpolitik, which is a basic issue with most sovereign countries.

Still, sometimes I think it’s better to act in one way or another than to be restrained by morality issues. I rarely support arguments like “we didn’t do anything/care about that, so why should we do anything/care about this?” It’ll only keep us from moving on.

Selective morality.

Peacemaking when it suits or is useful.

Like a policeman that will only act when his own personal interests are involved… not really a policeman at all really… just the biggest bully that picks on smaller bullies when it is useful to him… ie to look good or to improve his own position.

The thing that bothers me is,why did no one say anything about UK and Northern Ireland problems,France and Corsica,Spain and Basque,American extinction of Indian tribes(yes its historical thing,but still a large scale),US attrocities in Vietnam…These countries are large and no one dares to interfere with their problems.

Rwanda someone mentioned before but i guess not many people care about Africa at all.:(

And last but not least that US does not recognize the International tribunal to put its citizens on trial.And then they give an ultimatum to Serbia to catch the war criminals else….Isnt that called double-standards???

I do not agree with killings of Bosnian muslims or Croats by Serbian forces,but these attrocities happened on all sides and in many places in the world as mentioned above.If we want to have justice,then lets have justice for all(Doesnt US “Pledge of alegiance” say “freedom and justice for all” in the end? – blah)

In an open fist fight in hell between 3 fighters that all fight dirty who is the bad guy?

The Bosnian Serbs, originally funded and supported by Serbia, initiated the fighting and committed the most extensive crimes during most of the period. They had the resources to do it. The Croat 1995 offensive in Krajina and Eastern Slavonia is a similar issue, and I’m not exactly sure how the UN and NATO responded to it, although the Americans claim that they urged the Croatians to abort the operation. I guess you have to see it in connection with what the rebels did in Krajina in 1991. Nevertheless, the Croats did commit ethnic cleansing of Krajina Serb civilians, something which drew attention (Ante Gotovina, Rahim Ademi etc.)

The Bosnian Muslims were the ones who requested a Western intervention. The UN, in its efforts to avoid getting too deeply involved, long hesitated to make a strong and more decisive commitment. Yes, they took sides with the Muslim/Croat Federation, eventually, but I guess one should put it up against what actually happened up till the summer of 1995. Some may say that the Slovenians, Croats and Bosnian Muslims started the whole thing by running for independence, but this doesn’t change the fact that the Serbs took the military initiative and did the things they did. Neither Operation OLUJA or the actions of Nasar Oric and his associates change this fact.
Milosevic realised that BSA offensives and siege operations would only make things worse for Republika Srpska. It was he who urged the Americans to turn their eyes on Karadsic and Mladic.

Hense Rwandan Genocide that everyone ignores and effectively still does to this day.

I pretty much agree on Rwanda. It still bothers me, as does Darfur. It’s hard to say what the UN could have done, though. The experiences from Bosnia do not exactly tell of a strong, effective and decisive effort.

I was thinking more about your stance on the Bosnian Serbs. Hell, even Belgrade knew that something had to be done once their former “puppets” started getting a bit too wild.

In an open fist fight in hell between 3 fighters that all fight dirty who is the bad guy? Put in their place would you do what a foreign power came in and told you to do, or would you follow your own interests?
Australia listened to noone over immigration policy, America will listen to no one over Iraq or Iraq or Afghanistan, Britain will follow America anywhere, Europe will do what it needs to maintain the status quo or improve its own position.
Nobody does what is right just because it is the right thing to do.
Hense Rwandan Genocide that everyone ignores and effectively still does to this day.
Of course if they had gone in they would have picked a side… a bit more clear cut in this case I think…

You seem to be forgetting the bit about Serbian atrocities against the Kosovans. Just because some Albanians committed terrorism doesn’t mean Serbs had to start shooting and raping civilians, looting, etc. Or was this all made up?

Was it orchestrated government approved rape camps, or was it isolated incidents?
Since the Serbs have left, there has been no shootings or looting or rapes? If serbs that fled went back will their houses and churches still stand unmolested?

If someone in your neighbourhood detonates a bomb in the capital, does that give the authorities the right to line all the men in your area up (including yourself) and shoot them without trial?

First of all what evidence is there of that ever happening? If an army base near where I lived was attacked I would certainly expect to be questioned, and even expect to be suspected, but if the purpetrators do everything in their power to make it look like they were locals and leave trails to local villages and the police and army units get a bit rough does that mean that Helen Clark is a war criminal?

Strange, I went to OCS with a guy who had previously served in KFOR for six months or so, and he said that some of the Serbs living in Kosovo were quite happy with the NATO presence, probably due to the threat from certain Kosovoalbanian elements.

Thought I was clear that NATO gets responsibility because it is in charge of Kosovo when the Serbs left. When they did nothing to stop retribution and reprisal attacks they became as guilty as Serbia could be.
The fact that the serbs still rely on NATO for their safety shows what a good idea independance would be for Kosovo…

Give it some time. Karadsic and Mladic are still out there.

Yeah… when they are caught or killed the money will flow and Serbia will be welcomed into NATO and the EU with big hugs and kisses… or they’ll add new demands.

In my opinion, you could gain more credibility if you were to balance things a bit instead of pushing a seemingly narrow view on behalf of the Serbs in every case.

If you think I am being biased against the KLA perhaps you might want to criticise an American for being a bit harsh about OBL… for similar reasons. The KLA had an agenda and used the western media to get what they want… of course while both used violence against civilians directly and indirectly it was the KLA that was smart enough to earn the “good guy” badge, while OBL is hunted (like the dog he is). If you think I am being unfair then perhaps you need to have a close look at what sort of people would risk the lives of their own people to gain western support. OBL killed mostly westerners to get on the news, but the KLA were trying to get the serbs to kill their own people for their own gain.

Musashi,

Or was this all made up?

Some of it was and some wasn’t. Please remember (or find online or in a book) the kind of figures that were eminating from NATO spokesmen and NATO politicians during the air-campaign: Numbers such as 100,000 Albanian men mass-murdered come to mind. If I’m not much mistaken the most reliable and recent figures put the number of dead during the whole conflict in Kosovo (1998-99) at ‘upto’ 10,000 – killed in fighting, executed in war-crimes, died of exposure or disease etc… On all sides. I’ll try and dig out the UN report that that figure comes from. For an intense anti-guerilla conflict with an air campaign and with murderous *******s ready to kill civilians on both sides this does not seem to high.

Viper01,

I am pretty sure about Bosnia, though.

The evidence given during the Milosevic trial at the Hague suggests strongly that he had no direct control of forces there from the outset of the conflict. Influence (as shown by the Dayton agreement) over the leadership of the Bosnian Serbs does not qualify him for command responsibility over those forces and their actions.

Lonevolk,

The trully pro-western political parties in Serbia have only marginal support from Belgrade elitist circles, while the nationalist Radical Party has at least 40% support (probably more since the funeral)

This is not true. The Radical Party won around 27% of the vote in the last parlimentary elections. Most of the rest of the vote went to parties belonging to the democratic block. The very large number of such parties and the splits between them means that the Radical party was the largest single party but it is still a long way from having the kind of support necessary to win a parlimentary majority (and fortunately, their chances of making a coalition government are really really poor*). Even outside of the metropolis and other cities Serbia is largely in support of democratic government.

* The coalition building after the last election shows that no one party was willing to build a coalition with the Radicals – even the Socialists (SPS) turned their nose up at the prospect. Bogoljub Karic’s Serbian Mentalists Party would have been a good likely candidate if they hadn’t fought so hard to steal the Radical’s traditional support base.

Garry,

You seem to be forgetting the bit about Serbian atrocities against the Kosovans. Just because some Albanians committed terrorism doesn’t mean Serbs had to start shooting and raping civilians, looting, etc. Or was this all made up?

If someone in your neighbourhood detonates a bomb in the capital, does that give the authorities the right to line all the men in your area up (including yourself) and shoot them without trial?

Id like to say a few words.
Well for Mr molsivice he did a bad things but if he is sick you have to treat him and give justice for what he did and hell get also in Hell but i know that he requested treatment in Moscow and the UN did not let beacuse they knew that he would never come back and beacuse hes family is there. But at least bring him to some hospital like in Frence or the US or where ever at least if the country is a good allie or in NATO but you have to treat him thats what they do to every prisoner and they have to treat him the same.

Garry, I have no idea what your agenda is, but the evidence of what the Serbs were doing to the Kosovans is well documented.

The BBC had a documetary called “Moral Combat” where members of the KLA were interviewed, and they admitted openly that they intentionally attacked police and army units near Albanian villages in order to get the Serb police and Army units to go into those Albanian villages and look for the offenders. They only did it to Albanian villages that weren’t helping the KLA. The result was after being ruffed up on several occasions the KLA gathered more and more support, both locally and from the west. After a period of agitation and the commensement of NATO bombing the Serbs started removing Albanians forceably from their homes and sending them to the border (presumably home to albania).
What else could the serbs do? Accept terrorism? Give in to terrorism? It is not as if they got out Albanians, lined them up and shot them. If the Albanians were not happy then why no deport them to their home country?

Don’t try to turn this into some bull**** about how an innocent man was demonised or put into a position he couldn’t get out of.

Slobodan is a politician… where did I say he was innocent? But if he is to be put on trial for ethnic cleansing… is moving an ethnic group out of an area, then where are the charges against those currently in power in Kosovo… which would be NATO… for the ethnic cleansing of the Serbs?

The fact he was removed by his own people when he refused to step down after the 2000 election goes to show you how bad a leader he was.

He was removed by western promises of money and ending serbias isolation in europe… empty promises… something NATO has an endless supply of…