By: Comet - 25th July 2002 at 13:07
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
Only Africa and Europe Mongu, the US routes were taken on by VG Airlines. Sabena also used to code share with AA, so nothing is new there.
[www.groups.yahoo.com/group/sabenabelgianairlines]
By: mongu - 25th July 2002 at 12:36
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
Does SN actually fly anywhere other than Africa??!
By: Geforce - 24th July 2002 at 14:30
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
… made a deal with American Airlines. From now on, AA and SN will work closely together on their routes to Africa and North-America.
By: Noah - 24th July 2002 at 12:57
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
I agree that the Bermuda treaty is cr_p. Don’t get me wrong, but the decision to implement what you describe is still a policy, although we are probably just quibling about deffinitions now. My problem with the EU approach is that it is only addressing one part of the issue. Either way, observing how it all unfolds will be very interesting.
Noah
By: mongu - 23rd July 2002 at 22:18
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
It’s the other way round Noah!
The current state of affairs arose because goverments interfered. They preferred national flag carriers to get hometown slots. Grandfather rights (the biggie at LHR) stem from the time when BAA was a public company.
Also, Bermuda II is a disgraceful treaty.
So, if all these remnants of government interference were removed (by goverments, how else can it happen?) there would be no need for further public intervention.
Laissez faire!
By: Noah - 23rd July 2002 at 16:51
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
You just made my point for a active air transport policy rather than a passive one through the back door dressed up as competition policy!
Just enforcing competition on one part of the value chain without all the other elements in place will, IMHO, lead to more harm than good!
Noah.
By: mongu - 22nd July 2002 at 22:38
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
Actually I reached the opposite conclusion!
If it was all down to market forces, it might work. Consider if:
1. Airport grandfather rights were abolished.
2. A formal slot trading system was established (incidentally, accounting standards would then allow airlines to be able to capitalise them (show them as assets their balance sheets) which would increase the net assets of the airlines and probably make it easier to attract finance from the city).
3. All state aid was abolished in reality, not just theory.
4. The EC Competition Commision became a bit less zealous and
allowed deals to happen as long as they didn’t endanger the industry (eg. BA/KLM).
6. Taxation was harmonised so that some EU carriers didn’t pay less tax than others (I’m thinking airport and passenger taxes here, not company taxes).
8. 100% tax allowances were given to developers of airports and associated infrastructure (rail links etc). These would be essentially Capital Allowances, which companies get anyway on a variety of things – such as factories, agricultural land, machines etc)
I think it might work okay…
By: Noah - 22nd July 2002 at 11:54
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
Funnily enough, my conclusion was the same in my disertation. Although things have changed substantially since then (95-96), the bilateral agreement regimes still predominate, although the EU is constantly looking for ways, either through treaty revisions or competition policy or foreign trade agreements to get itself a role.
It is a far from satisfactory state of affairs, however, as there is no real coherent policy framework for effective air transport as a whole in the EU but just a big stick in terms of competition.
My conclusion was that air transport is a complex issue and just leaving it to the market to decide what outcomes are achieved will have significant social and political ramifications that have not been thought through. Also, looking at the US industry at the moment one gets the feeling that just copying that model will not work in Europe and betting the house on the low-cost point-to-point operators seems to me a little foolhardy.
The need for reform and healthy finances in EU aviation is undeniable and the way many of the European companies operate (or don’t for that matter!) must be a cause for concern, but there needs to be a carrot AND stick approach from the EU if it is ever going to be more than just a policeman of the industry, IMHO.
Noah
By: mongu - 20th July 2002 at 13:17
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
Interesting thesis Noah.
The Uni I went to allowed me to study an extra two modules rather than do a dissertation, but I did work on a body of work for a 2nd year report on the rise of low cost airlines. I studied Easyjet (yeah, another person on the bandwagon!) and the practical non-reality of Cabotage was a recurring theme.
Do you really think things will Europeanise in the coming years?
By: Noah - 19th July 2002 at 15:35
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
Thanks very much for the very detailed instructions. I will give the group a try and see how I get on.
I like Belgium too, although I don’t know the country in as much detail as you. Like the beers and the great variety and number of bars, but never flown with any of the airlines.
My interest in Sabena is more from the business side. I had done my disertation at university on the Europeanisation of air transport regulation, but once in the the big bad commercial world I found my carere moving me towards the world of technology and the internet. Now that this has all very much imploded, I am finding myself dusting off my old disertation and considering whether with all the upheaval taking place in the European air transport sector it may be a good industry to return to as a research subject, either academic or commercial or both.
Since Sabena and Swissair were the first to face closure, I have started my preliminary trawl for possible research ideas and subjects from those two and the efforts of the two countries concerned to rebuild their air transport sectors via new ‘old’ companies. I am very interested to understand how the business models of the ‘newcos’ were envisaged.
Any pointers or useful information from yourself or the rest of the group would be more than welcome.
Noah
By: Comet - 19th July 2002 at 13:35
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-07-02 AT 01:36Â PM (GMT)]Noah, sorry for taking a while to reply, I only have computer access twice a week at the moment. The Sabena Group was originally on Yahoo Clubs, which I personally preferred. The group works in a similar way to this forum – you need a Yahoo ID and then you click on the join link, after that you can post messages on the club in much the same way as you do on here, I do not moderate membership so you would be approved straight away and be able to post. You need an e-mail address, but you can choose to keep it hidden if you wish. I am always pleased to get new members in the group, it is good to get new input of ideas, and opinions are always welcomed. You could choose to get postings sent to your e-mail address, or you could read them on the group pages, and you would be able to download photos into the album.
As for the fascination with Belgian aviation, that is not entirely easy to explain but I’ll do my best. I had always wanted to fly with Sabena, and when I finally visited Brussels they were my natural choice. The crew on the flight were great, and had genuine humour, they were the best I ever flew with and I just loved Belgium – the food, the countryside and the architecture of the towns, I go there every year and I always fly, but this year I won’t be flying with SN Brussels because they weren’t established when I booked my trip, so I’ll be flying with VLM. I like the friendliness and humour of the Belgians, not to mention the beer, and I think their airlines have had a bad deal in the past few years, which is a shame compared to the bad attitude of some airlines which are still flying. [www.groups.yahoo.com/group/sabenabelgianairlines]
By: Saab 2000 - 15th July 2002 at 16:01
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
Comet,I hate to dissapoint you,but just because VEX may loose some slots at European airports is no cause for concern.This year,after much looses they seem to be making a profit.Also a new base in Germany has been announced and they are considering a new fleet of aircraft,so don’t worry,I doubt VEX are going anywhere.
By: Noah - 15th July 2002 at 15:44
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
Would love an explanation 😉
By: KabirT - 15th July 2002 at 15:33
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
that question also comes to my mind Noah…. }>
By: Noah - 15th July 2002 at 15:28
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
Interested in the sabena group on yahoo, but a little confused about how it all works.
How come the big passion for Belgian aviation?
Noah
By: Comet - 15th July 2002 at 13:54
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
I would be glad to see the back of VEX, I’m not a fan of those cheap airlines and prefer the major carriers. I would not, however, consider flying to Brussels with BA.[www.groups.yahoo.com/group/sabenabelgianairlines]
By: Noah - 12th July 2002 at 17:03
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
It will be interesting to see if the Swiss or SN Brussels model of reconstituted national carrier makes it in the long-run.
Noah
By: Saab 2000 - 12th July 2002 at 16:36
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
That would now mean that VEX doesn’t operate in to the UK.Wonder what could happen to VEX’s slots at BCN,NCE and other European airports because SN own them as well.
By: KabirT - 12th July 2002 at 16:32
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
SN Brussels airline considers 12 new routes
BRUSSELS, July 12 (Reuters) – New Belgian national airline SN Brussels Airlines is considering opening 12 new routes, including flights to Athens, Lisbon, Tel Aviv and Istanbul, the airline’s executive president said on Friday.
Rob Kuypers told the Belgian daily De Morgen the flights would either be operated by the airline itself or through commercial agreements with other airlines.
SN Brussels, which took the place of defunct national carrier Sabena last year, currently flies to 36 European destinations and opened routes to African destinations in late April.
The airline said on Thursday it had also signed a commercial agreement with British Airways (BAY), which would enable the Belgian airline’s customers to fly with British Airways to London. SN Brussels Airlines said its customers will be able to fly to London Heathrow and Gatwick under a route code-sharing agreement from October 27. SN Brussels does not currently fly to Gatwick.
Kuypers said the Belgian airline would be able to attract British passengers on its African flights.
He said it was too soon to speculate whether SN Brussels would also join the Oneworld airline alliance, of which British Airways is a member.
“Allow us to grow quietly and prove that we deserve our place on the market and within an alliance,” he said.
The two airlines have also entered into a slot exchange agreement for the exchange of seven slot pairs at London Heathrow.
SN also said earlier this month it had signed a code sharing agreement with U.S. airline Continental Airlines (CAL).
*******
BA consolidates at Heathrow
British Airways and SN Brussels has negotiated a codesharing agreement with SN Brussels, which if approved, could see BA acquire valuable new take off and landing slots at Heathrow.
Since the immediate aftermath of the September 11th terrorist attacks BA has been reducing capacity at Gatwick and looking to consolidate its position at Heathrow, Europe’s busiest airport.
According to the Financial Times, BA will take over seven of SN Brussels’ nine slots at Heathrow as a prelude to the Belgian airline pulling out of London altogether and selling seats on BA flights instead.
BA is also said to have acquired a number of other slots in recent months through a series of negotiations with the likes of Balkan Bulgarian Airlines and Lithuanian Airlines.
The deal will also see Virgin Express, which used two SN Brussels slots, pull out of the Heathrow/Brussels route.
The codesharing agreement will only be allowed to go through if the UK and European authorities can satisfy themselves that there is adequate competition between London and Brussels.
Whilst the deal will certainly reduce the number operators, BA has stressed that significant competition still exists with Eurostar services accounting for almost 50 per cent of London to Brussels traffic.
******
By: Saab 2000 - 12th July 2002 at 15:49
RE: SN Brussels Airlines …
Not just LGW and LHR now,they have extend the code-share all over UK.
What will happen to VEX because SN has an agreement with them?VEX may have to pull out of the LHR market as the slots belong to SNBA.
Anyway interesting news,nice to see another European airline going BA’s way.
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July 12, 2002 at 1:55 pm