So called British Nationals Fighting for IS – Revoke British passports?

Re 46
Charlie,

I’m reluctant to condemn someone as an idiot but in this case I’ll make a rare exception. His ‘arguments’ are contradictory and threadbare. He is primarily a troll, looking to create opportunities for mischief. This persons comments discredits all notions of civilised discourse.

IGNORE

Snafu – what a crass response. Of course my comments only apply to the extremists – that’s who we are discussing in this thread isn’t it? And comparing the actions of ISIS with fox hunters is bizarre beyond belief.

‘Here’s a concept: how about the countries affected tell us what is needed, the countries around those countries, so that we are not held responsible for barging in like Rambo in a jockstrap eager to be seen to do the right thing as we see it? It is a party that we are not necessarily invited to: our military is giving advice, our reporters are there, even our experts are somewhere around the locale – are they really needed or wanted’

The Iraqi’s have asked for U.S airstrikes – the Kurds have requested airstrikes and military equipment -the Syrians have offered assistance and have hosted Western military intelligence visits.

With British infantry already having been on the ground – Rivet Joint carrying out Sigint and Tornado GR.4’s carrying out extensive reconnaisance and undoubtedly the ‘US and British military ‘advisors’ helping to direct the fight back we are far past the stage of waiting for a ‘party invite’ from Iraq and Syria!

In the bathroom I wonder what comes out of the taps, Zyklon B?

Wasn’t actually thinking in terms of money or ransom. Merely in terms of resources. The major element lacking from the current response to the islamic fundamentalists is the will to commit long term to eradicating them.

Here’s a concept: how about the countries affected tell us what is needed, the countries around those countries, so that we are not held responsible for barging in like Rambo in a jockstrap eager to be seen to do the right thing as we see it? It is a party that we are not necessarily invited to: our military is giving advice, our reporters are there, even our experts are somewhere around the locale – are they really needed or wanted?
No: I don’t like the idea of our extremists being there and murdering people, but they are and whilst we can jump up and down now there is very little we can do until and unless they return; we can make claims about revoking their passports and denying them re-entry to Britain (should they actually try to come back) but unless the crazy ideas about interning all Muslims actually happen we are about as effective as my two year old daughter standing at the waters edge, waving her fist at the sea and yelling about the tide making her feet wet.

Wasn’t advocating indiscriminate locking up. It would be relatively simple to make a statement that certain type of behaviour and comments are not acceptable. For example declaring that Europe should be under sharia law potentially would be relatively mild but not acceptable, stating that all non believers should die would be the other end of the scale. If you wish to live in Europe and partake of the freedoms, lifestyle and quality of life neither of these statements would be compatible with such a desire.

Sounds a bit like thought-crime to me. And if we’re on the subject of making criminal claims how come they haven’t prevented idiots (ok, some are drunk, but not all) from ending up locked away for making stupid claims about having bombs in their luggage? Some of the younger Muslims might make claims such as you mention just to gain kudos from their mates, etc.
Maybe you want all European-based Muslims to make a pledge that they will not do naughty things?;o)
Making pledges never stopped our politicians from back-pedalling or even just plain ignoring their previous promises…

How dare you. Just because jonny g thinks i’m a lefty doesn’t make it true!

Oh, please!!! John is confused enough as it is – let him have just one grand assumption he can call his own!

Here is a hypothetical situation, the law prevents me from advertising with a sign of my house (For sale but not to Muslims) as being racist which of coarse is correct! However if I was to admit for viewing when selling our home and being my wife has collected pig ornaments could I then be done for racism when not advising what is on show inside ?
At the same time putting a sign up explaining why Muslims would not be advised to view would this also be viewed as racism even though I am trying to accommodate their beliefs by not offending them ?

I imagine that if they are in the market for a house, and they have gone to look at yours, then a few pigs that won’t be left there after you’ve moved isn’t going to scrub the deal. Lets face it, if they were really that extreme then they would probably not be happy with living in a house that had until recently been occupied by infidel unbelievers. But my local corner shop sells bacon and the Daily Mail, in fact if he hasn’t got what you want in the shop he is happy to get it for you: maybe he is leading his customers into a false sense of security?

More hypothetical, slightly off topic, stuff.

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http://terriblerealestateagentphotos.com/page/6

Would you sell this house to Jews or advise people of colour against viewing it?

In short Geoff, they are narrow minded, bigoted zealots with no humanity and no comprehension of anything but blind and misguided adherence to their extreme beliefs.

Only the extremists, Charlie. And, to be fair, that is a description that could be directed at quite a few social groups: I once met a landowner (lord of the manor-type, made sure that everyone he met knew exactly how many hectares he farmed) who fitted your description perfectly: he made claims that no government was going to stop him hunting foxes on his land, because it was his bloody land and his bloody foxes and they would have to lock him up and throw away the key before he’d stop. He claimed fox hunting was a humane way of controlling the population; a farm hand intimated that should the hunting bill come into effect then his pack would be ‘retired’ the same way the elderly and infirm hounds were disposed of – cheaply, with a hammer. Never did find out what happened to the pack.

Their extinction is the only way forward.

Is that a direct, translated quote from Mein Kampf, by any chance?

Boris for PM

Because he advocates guilty until proven innocent for people who have Middle Eastern skin tones and follow a non christian religion?
Remarkable, isn’t it, that we can go for decades with the same laws and be internationally regarded as a safe pair of hands as far as justice goes, yet throw in a few career politicians with very little or no experience – certainly worldly – and we can wave goodbye to our reputation. The world now regards us as evidence-falsifying war-mongers, lined up alongside a gung-ho nation happy to torture prisoners in secret locations (preferably not on their own soil) with both apparently eager to jump into war seemingly (it appears internationally) to boost their leaders reputation at home.
How is Boris going to prove that any Muslims returning to Britain have been in Syria – especially since they are hardly likely to come directly from Syria or have a Syrian entry visa in their passports? If someone is trying to hide where they’ve been they will float around from airport to airport, maybe use a ferry or hire car, train, or bus to cross borders. Is he proposing that every Muslim returning to Britain is a potential terrorist, simply because they have been abroad? That’s an awful lot of Muslims to check up on, especially when the chances of actual fighters returning from the front line for a little R’n’R with the relatives is probably rather small; those coming here to do bad stuff are likely to be as clean (as in unknown, untainted) and pure as the driven snow (and any bad stuff happening in Britain would probably be done by residents hopefully fingered to the security services by others unhappy at what the bad guys are proposing; more reason not to upset resident Muslims).

But the proposal to change the law from being innocent to guilty until proven is a dangerous one: where does it stop?
Once the government sets the precedence that one group is to be treated differently from others (unless the others look like them, of course) then the line is crossed. Don’t disagree with those in power – because you are regarded as a subversive your phone might be tapped and your communications intercepted. Freedom of speech is dangerous and might upset the balance of power, letting in people those in lofty positions would rather not defer to. And don’t question what is happening around you, speaking out shows you to be an enemy of the state…

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Never stop speaking out.

Justice to my mind is best served in the countries involved – as it would if you were a British drug smuggler in Indonesia or a murder in the U.S.

If they survive to have justice served on them.

As we appear to be timidly reluctant to take meaningful action against our enemies in this country perhaps the way forward is by the use of surrogates, of whom Syria is just one.

What action would you like taken, John?
Snatch squads waiting outside mosques? Internment or deportation to IS territory unless each adult shops three potential terrorists? Or just the traditional lynch mob doing what mindless lynch mobs traditionally do – although best move everyone involved with any sort of muslin out of the area, just to be on the safe side, you know how brainless the mob-mentality gets… Please be a little more explicit John!

There is no other way! Syria has ‘IS’ bases which they would love to eliminate . They act as safe havens from the Iraq front line and as training camps. As long as they exist IS has the ability to sustain its campaign. With Syrian help on the ground we need to go in with our and U.S airpower and destroy all their vehicles and fuel/ammunition dumps.

Secondary to this we also need Saudi Arabia and Qatar to route out the funders of ‘IS’ and deal with them . Its simply wrong that these people are channelling funds to IS with apparant immunity.

Overall the notion that the Syrian regime is going to be toppled any time soon is fast evaporating.

The West and the likes of Iran know that the ‘IS’ is a threat to the whole region- whilst it might be uncomfortable we need to embrace the people who can and want to stop ‘IS’ -if that means helping Iran and Syria so be it.

As we appear to be timidly reluctant to take meaningful action against our enemies in this country perhaps the way forward is by the use of surrogates, of whom Syria is just one.

Geoff -the papers undoubtedly want the story of who he is and why he is out there . To the public it makes him one of the most recognisable people on the planet. It also means that the people in the Middle East fighting know that they are identifiable and that justice will not escape them. In the case of this particular individual -he will not be leaving the region -its just a matter of who gets him first -the Iraqis -the Syrians-the Americans or us ! Either way all of these countries know he is now a high value target and the likes of the Al Qaida affiliates and various other groups would no doubt like the prestige of being able to solve our ‘problem’ !

In terms of passports – revoking passports will achieve little ! The people concerned are violating laws in both Iraq and Syria – we really don’t have any choice but to take the olive branch being offered by the Syrian regime to help us . That means the two countries concerned detaining or eliminating the individuals depending on whether they wish to surrender or not with our help.
Justice to my mind is best served in the countries involved – as it would if you were a British drug smuggler in Indonesia or a murder in the U.S.

Boris for PM(provided we don’t all have to ride bikes) CMD ‘s days are numbered if the Conservatives win the next election.

In short Geoff, they are narrow minded, bigoted zealots with no humanity and no comprehension of anything but blind and misguided adherence to their extreme beliefs.

Their extinction is the only way forward.

Hi All,
The problem is really how can you talk sense to a faith that has a mind-set like this pillock below in the video. I apologise here for going off topic slightly,
Here is a hypothetical situation, the law prevents me from advertising with a sign of my house (For sale but not to Muslims) as being racist which of coarse is correct! However if I was to admit for viewing when selling our home and being my wife has collected pig ornaments could I then be done for racism when not advising what is on show inside ?
At the same time putting a sign up explaining why Muslims would not be advised to view would this also be viewed as racism even though I am trying to accommodate their beliefs by not offending them ?
To my mind it’s their belief system that prevents them from entertaining another form of religious belief and that being the case how can you talk with these people without upsetting them ?

Geoff.

Maybe, maybe not – just how much were they asking for as Foley’s ransom? If they got even part of that for each of the other westerners who have been ransomed then they can afford to buy their friends. And if they are prepared to go along the route of one martyr for dozens of infidels then numbers won’t matter until they’ve wrung their barrel dry.

Wasn’t actually thinking in terms of money or ransom. Merely in terms of resources. The major element lacking from the current response to the islamic fundamentalists is the will to commit long term to eradicating them.

How long do you envisage the short term to be? Months? Years? Decades?
At some point we are going to have to trust the good Muslims and take them onboard and into our confidence – which won’t happen if we’ve locked them up because they look funny and waterboarded them twice daily to see what they know.
… Things we take for granted now in Britain cannot be taken away from just a segment of our society, defined by their invisible friend of choice and possibility that some may have thoughts about the way of life of those who don’t believe in said non-existent deity.

Could be decades, certainly not months. See my comment above re the will to commit.
Wasn’t advocating indiscriminate locking up. It would be relatively simple to make a statement that certain type of behaviour and comments are not acceptable. For example declaring that Europe should be under sharia law potentially would be relatively mild but not acceptable, stating that all non believers should die would be the other end of the scale. If you wish to live in Europe and partake of the freedoms, lifestyle and quality of life neither of these statements would be compatible with such a desire.

…Do you really think that lecturing Muslim extremists that all they believe is wrong is really going to work? If they lectured at you wouldn’t you be scared that they will convert you?

Wouldn’t bother for a minute trying to reason with the idiots but wouldn’t be worried about an idiot converting me!

Come one John, did you see what he said about you there? Are you going to allow the truth about you to be exposed like that? Again?

Tell him, John, type something that will really knock his socks off (although he’s a lefty, John, so he might not be wearing socks – but (gasp) sandals!!! He might even have a (shock) donkey jacket! What a thing to own, eh John? It’s a well known fact that sandal wearing donkey jacket owners don’t wear socks at the same time! That’s evil! And unsporting! He can’t be a real Englishman if he is as unsporting as that, damnit! Go on, report him to the police for not being a proper Englishman!) and put him in his place.

How dare you. Just because jonny g thinks i’m a lefty doesn’t make it true!

I work in Croydon. The accent is very familiar, believe me.

Hi All,
Why thank you Paul! 😮
Here’s another thing I cannot understand in todays papers most advertise the fact this pillock has now been more or less identified as A,B or C. Why do the tabloids make this public knowledge ? When I assume it would be better to let him and those who will undoubtedly protect him on his return think they have got away with their acts of murder, then trail him as he walks through the gates of whatever airport to return to the so called jihadist fighting get film of his movements then nab him on his return to the U.K. or better still send a sniper team to take these ******s out in what ever country they are fighting in ?

Geoff.

Very well said Geoff!

Hi All,
Is exiling still an option surely some antiquated law seldom used could be reactivated ? My revulsion is as everybody else’s on here but at the end of the day they are all just mercenaries a lot going with the belief it’s like playing a video game as this has been quoted by one of these nobheads already on youtube.
To my mind these ********s should just be banned from re-entry if they are found to be fighting but like I have said before they will just have their Families plead with the government ‘ They were brain washed/They didn’t mean it/He’s only 18 etc.etc.
Basically give any excuse and twist the Human rights law’s to their own advantage just like they do when being sent back home, when they should all in unison do as one father has done and disowned his son for fighting with these dead heads. What I can never understand is why when these small group of radicals are vastly outnumbered by good Muslims they have been so successful when they should have clearly been wiped of the face of the earth already.

Geoff.

The guy who sawed that American guys head off the other day had a clear London accent.

Yes and thats why anybody who cannot prove there peaceful intent in visiting that region should be turned around with a large boot up the anus. Its about time the peace loving Muslim community also stepped forward and started to grass these fanatics up or get the hell out of this country. Keeping your head down and going tut tut is no longer an option. When the day comes as it surely will that action will result in retribution by the silent majority.

There is a multiplicity of accents in and around London. Needles in haystacks – I reckon the security services know more than we think they know.

The guy who sawed that American guys head off the other day had a clear London accent.

Absolutely, but allowing evil to stand with no retort will likely provide the same result or worse. At some point you have to say we are not standing for this and we have more moral, intellectual and plain hard currency (numbers) than you so we will win.

Maybe, maybe not – just how much were they asking for as Foley’s ransom? If they got even part of that for each of the other westerners who have been ransomed then they can afford to buy their friends. And if they are prepared to go along the route of one martyr for dozens of infidels then numbers won’t matter until they’ve wrung their barrel dry.

I was thinking somewhere very desolute and sandy.

Blackpool?

Again i agree but at some point the question has to be asked, is repying on the good folk effective (enough) ? For me i’m not all that bothered about appearing to be the good side in the short term, that is a long term goal once a sufficient degree of control has been established.

How long do you envisage the short term to be? Months? Years? Decades?
At some point we are going to have to trust the good Muslims and take them onboard and into our confidence – which won’t happen if we’ve locked them up because they look funny and waterboarded them twice daily to see what they know.
If you were a North Korean would you trust the dear leader’s judgement that it was all for the greater good after being locked up for asking when the next food delivery is due and your neighbour and his immediate family slaughtered for thinking that something is wrong with the system? Things we take for granted now in Britain cannot be taken away from just a segment of our society, defined by their invisible friend of choice and possibility that some may have thoughts about the way of life of those who don’t believe in said non-existent deity.

I also believe too much has been conducted for political reasons in the full glare of publicity and without enough consideration of operational security and thus effectiveness of actions. It is essentially weak political leadership that has allowed the situation to get to this point.

It is the only one we’ve got – and it isn’t going to get any better!
Things have been conducted on the quiet – I was unaware that others had been released after a ransom was paid, that they had been harshly treated but told not to say anything about that because the other captives would be punished, or that the Americans had tried and failed to rescue Foley . I imagine that our ‘weak’ leadership has been caught on the wrong foot by the execution video and decided that no matter what they do there is little that can be done to help the other American journalist so they’ve let the world see what kind of evil monsters IS is.

In my view the political classes have become too focused on the capitalist mirage of the pursuit of wealth, heavily influenced by those who stand to gain from such activity. As a result the basic responsibilities of leading a country have been allowed to take at best second place.

But the leaders have been nicely compensated so far, and no one wants to see their cash cow slaughtered, don’t you agree…?;o)
Unfortunately the Iraqi leadership cadre have been taught by the same American mindset that blundered with Vietnam (fight their battles until US public will has demanded their boys home and leaving the home team with well trained capitalists and their Swiss bank accounts but a curate’s egg of a military and a dedicated enemy).
What is needed is for a proper multi national peace keeping force with proper international backing and a mandate that says that they don’t stop until the problem is properly sorted out, one way or another. Ho hum.

The day when humans finally stop believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden will be a good one. But you and i know attempting to ban religion will sadly have the opposite effect.

…Yeah, force it underground and destroy society by letting them plot and plan and overthrow elected governments. I know…;o)

True, particulalry with regard to the bnp and griffin. I certainly do not advocate removing freedom of speech but allowing folk to lecture impressionable young people and indoctrinate them with the idea that the freedoms allowing such lecturing are evil and should be removed seems rather contradictory to me.

You never met a missionary before? Such is their zeal it’s almost as if they get paid more for the attempt than for the convert! (I met one, in South London of all places, trying to ‘return’ the lost and fallen sheep of Brixton and Herne Hill, offering lectures and sustenance to teenagers and adults alike and being royally ignored by all as he prattled on).
Do you really think that lecturing Muslim extremists that all they believe is wrong is really going to work? If they lectured at you wouldn’t you be scared that they will convert you?
My view is that it would only work if those being lectured at are either susceptible and aren’t as convinced as they thought, or the carrot-and-stick routine is carried out using electrodes and probes – and we all know the latter is not (apparently) allowed by law.

There definately comes a point when the alienation and indoctrination of those young is at such a level that rather than see the obvious crap the fundamentalists (both islamic and christian) spout, as you and i do, they are drawn more and more to it as an explanation for their own failures.

But, like UKIP, they have no failures; it is always bright blue skies and success all round!

Ouch

I must bow to your insider knowledge.;o)

Oh dear still confused isn’t he.

It’s because he has to share the UK with immigrants, especially illegal ones. Makes him a little light headed and unable to think properly.

It’s jolly good to see you two agree on so many things. It augers well for the future of the forum. May I suggest that the forum embargoes future ‘snafus’. How many do we need for Heaven’s sake? We’ve got ‘son of Snafu’, or, brother, do we really need aunts, uncles, cousins, the milkman amd sundry illiterates ?

You are getting there, aren’t you John, but maybe you should start with something funny first though, just to string your audience along and make them think you actually meant to leave all those long and boring bits in.

So you weren’t aware of the use of the term ‘soccer’ ? I would have thought that you of all, would have known that. I had you down as a ‘soccer’ supporter. Have I misjudged you ?

Yes, I was unaware. And I admitted it, and you’ve pointed it out again even though I had acknowledged that fact already: well done you. You must be so very, very proud…

You write that you obtained ‘higher education’. Did you get an ‘ology or, a 2.1 in medya studies ?

Now I’m confused with your confusion – are you flirting with me or the other guy now?

Thanks for the correction. The mistake was due to the influence of either snafuA or, snafuB – difficult to tell them apart.

Isn’t it just; in fact I can’t remember which one I am. But I do know I’m not John Green – I am not that confused.

It is rather a strange thing to feel the need to come out with the above randomness, a little obsessive methinks.

I think he fancies you, and I’m feeling a bit left out.

I know that you find the concept of taking responsibility for your actions difficult but please do try harder.

I going to back John, here. I just know he will come back at you with something pithy and demonstrative of his well matured wit.

Substitute snafu’s for black’s, asian’s and foreigners in general and you have jonny g’s true feelings.
Careful jonny, you may actually be honest and expose yourself if you keep on in this vein.

Come one John, did you see what he said about you there? Are you going to allow the truth about you to be exposed like that? Again?

Tell him, John, type something that will really knock his socks off (although he’s a lefty, John, so he might not be wearing socks – but (gasp) sandals!!! He might even have a (shock) donkey jacket! What a thing to own, eh John? It’s a well known fact that sandal wearing donkey jacket owners don’t wear socks at the same time! That’s evil! And unsporting! He can’t be a real Englishman if he is as unsporting as that, damnit! Go on, report him to the police for not being a proper Englishman!) and put him in his place.