So, what now for Cosford…?

The boss of Precision Aerospace Murray Griffith died a couple of years ago. I am not sure how the company was restructured and how that left the proposed exchange deal.

The P-40 container was reported on here as ‘moved’ – I would like to think a close watch is being kept on it but by who??

I would suggest that the ‘no comment’ refers to just that, they have no comment to make. Firstly, they are in a state of leadership hiatus due to the rather sudden departure of the previous Director General and the fact that the newly-appointed CEO has yet to take up her post. Secondly, several recent high-profile acquisitions have turned sour (the P-40E and A-20). All in all, I’m not in the least surprised their keeping very tight-lipped on the subject of acquisitions at the present time.

So what is exactly happening over the P40 and A20 _are they lost to the RAFM

If you are unwilling to waste peoples time on point scoring, why start a ‘I know something you don’t’ post.

Brian

Not reticent David, just unwilling to waste people’s time on point scoring. If you seriously want to know, go find out 🙂

‘The BP111 is already in a museum’ – yes indeed next year will mark forty years outside at Coventry for the sole BP-111.

It is both sad and criminal that this aircraft is allowed to rot away outdoors……… It deserves a better fate.

Planemike

I don’t think it will bore people -you stated ‘Boscombe Down didn’t want it and Old Sarum couldn’t have it’

Why couldn’t they have it ? You seem to know – why are you reticent about it?

‘As for Everett, well obviously they bought it in expectation of re-selling it. But they haven’t sold it. Again, this is self-evident’

Does that actually mean anything ?? Everetts are not Morrisons ! They have been around for a good while and I imagine will be there in years
to come .

‘The BP111 is already in a museum’ – yes indeed next year will mark forty years outside at Coventry for the sole BP-111.

David – we’ve been down this path before. I don’t want to bore other readers with unnecessary repetition. The story of XT597’s departure from Boscombe Down is well known, so if you’re genuinely interested, find out for yourself.
Every aircraft is at risk of being scrapped when it is withdrawn and/or sold. I would have thought that was obvious.
As for Everett, well obviously they bought it in expectation of re-selling it. But they haven’t sold it. Again, this is self-evident.

Thunderbird – the “powers that be” are ignoring it. That’s patently obvious. The BP111 is already in a museum. Everett are simply conducting their business, nothing wrong with that. Point is, it should never have got to the stage that it was available for purchase by Everett. But having reached that stage, it’s very sad that RAFM have showed no interest in at least talking to Everett to see if XT597 could be recovered at a reasonable cost. Basically, they have no interest in XT597. Yes, Hendon has a Phantom but we’ve discussed this previously. XT597 is more than just another Phantom as explained. As for the Dornier, well that’s all well and good. I’m sure lots of people find the wreckage fascinating. But that’s not the point. The point is that it has nothing to do with the RAF… or at least if we’re to claim that it has, then XT597 is even more directly connected… which is where I came in I think! 🙂

The contract has been let, and dismantling is in progress

https://www.facebook.com/XR808?ref=ts&fref=ts

…and doubtless considerably more on doing the same with the VC-10.

If it happens, of which I have my doubts.

Incidentally, BAe gave serious consideration to this as an option when recovering the aircraft from Abingdon to convert them to tankers, but decided that rebuilding and flying them was a better option. Cosford is not an easy place to bring in an aircraft the size of the VC-10 by road, the Nimrod was a bit of a challenge. For comparison the VC-10 is 32 ft longer and has a 32ft greater wingspan

…if this was so the RAF Museum would not have spent over £100,000 in moving the Nimrod by road to Cosford.

…and doubtless considerably more on doing the same with the VC-10.

[QUOTE=WH904;2189218]Tin, how can they defend ignoring XT597, especially when they have a research aircraft collection?

The powers that be are not ignoring it, the aircraft is privately owned just like the Boulton Paul BP111A which sits outside at the Midland Aircraft Museum and perhaps deserves a space at Cosford ahead of XT597.

The RAF Museum at Hendon has a Phantom just as it was in service. Therefore there is no strong driver to add XT597. Much as I would like to see XT597 in a museum this will only happen if the buying price is met, as the price reflects the cost of acquisition and moving to Bentwaters and storage in the interim. I do not think the current owners are making absolute fortunes out of the small number of airframes that seem to find new owners. I for one can not remember the last aircraft to be scrapped by Everett’s. I would hazard a guess that they have scrapped less than Hendon, Cosford and Duxford together.

With respect to the Dornier, it is the last of the type and no doubt is intended to go to Hendon eventually. Whether it is worth the cost of recovery and restoration only time will tell. To my mind there is no undue bias to WW2, if this was so the RAF Museum would not have spent over £100,000 in moving the Nimrod by road to Cosford.

Hub? More of a shed I’d say!

Cosford has a role to play as part of the attempt to prevent the magnetic attraction of the South Of England winning more exhibits.This has pulled in many airframes over many years. The IWM has recognised this and chosen Manchester as a Northern hub.

Every aircraft is at risk if being scrapped if we apply your rationale ! Again why would they spend a lot if money moving an airframe if they believed at any stage they would end up scrapping it ? It’s completely illogical .

As to Old Sarim – you elude to knowing why it couldn’t go there .
Why don’t you flesh out your statement ?

Despite a life long interest in historic aviation I have never been to Cosford but hope to do so en route to a family holiday next summer.

It’s only my humble preference of course, but the exhibit I am most looking forward to seeing is the lump of Luftwaffe wreckage. Like a not dissimilar exhibit in the Bomber Command Hall at Hendon, I find such things highly poignant.

Obviously Everett don’t propose to scrap it but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t at risk of being scrapped.

Historically more important? Yes, for the reasons I’ve already mentioned.

Old Sarum? Ask them and they’ll probably tell you.

Not quite sure where you get your information from! Everett Aero undoubtedly spent a lot of money and time getting XT597 from Boscombe to Bentwaters. Why would they have bothered if their long term aim was to scrap it! They are an aircraft dealer -a deal will be done at some stage and it will move on .

As to being the first and last Phantom to fly over here . Is that historically more important than a Phantom that was used for one of its purposes i.e a QRA machine which might have intercepted countless Soviet aircraft ?

Examining your ‘connections’ to the RAF -it didn’t fly with the RAF – many aircraft are directly connected with the Cold War -however XT597 wasn’t on the front line and there are other interesting test machines that should be in the Cosford collection before XT597.

Regards Old Sarum not being able to have it -on what basis?

re;

This was the situation at the time my “clock” stopped a few weeks ago when I took redundancy and retired from the MOD Civil Service. My previous HQ was Cosford so I made a few visits there over the last couple of years. So my knowledge of the situation now may not be up to date.

The Jet Provosts have all gone, there are none used for ground handling training now as far as I know. (I saw a couple of JP airframes leave Cosford on the back of low loaders around a year ago now). On my last visit in October, only Jaguar aircraft were in use, some of these were airframes transferred from Cranwell.

After the faff (and believe me, it was a faff for me, both when wearing a uniform and afterwards as a civvy) with all Defence Technical Training going to MOD St Athan under a PPP with Metrix as the chosen contractor group, it transpired that this was deemed as unaffordable (not least by the incoming Government in 2010) and the dream of a brand new Defence Technical Training College at St Athan, incorporating the Red Dragon superhangar, was killed off in October 2010 and an in-house format was chosen instead. Bearing in mind that no solution seems to be affordable in these strange times, progress since has been somewhat slow. The “in-house” format turned out to be a recycled RAF Lyneham, now MOD Lyneham and the Defence Technical Training Team moved there at least a couple of years ago I guess. I’m certain the next thing that happened was the erection of a “sod off” fence around the whole base.

Initial plans were for the Army technical training schools at Bordon and Arborfield to move in first and then the RAF aeronautical technical training school from Cosford to move and finally the aeronautical part of the RN technical training from HMS Sultan by 2020. To my knowledge, only the Army units have moved or will move to Lyneham in the near future as Arborfield is too close to Reading to resist not being sold for housing development; they may have moved out already, I’m not sure. I’ll have a sniff on the Net.

RAF Cosford will undoubtedly try to retain its aeronautical engineering training at Cosford (and why not?) and, as part of a “strengthening” and savings move in 2012, all RAF Engineer Officer Phase 2 training relocated from RAFC Cranwell to Cosford. A “double move” to Lyneham so soon would not only anger the Trade Unions. Current Govt policy (whatever that’s worth) is still that all Defence Technical Training will decant to Lyneham.

Having gladly spent much of my RAF career “following the flag” I decided that there was no way I’d move any more and attempted to hold out for another MOD Civil Service post in the Cranwell area but voluntary redundancy has proved to be too great a temptation and I’m not young enough to be “peed around” by a shrinking Defence environment any more so I pulled the “yellow and black” which gives me more time to read items on sites like this on the Internet!

I apologise if any of this information is incorrect but this is how I saw it, how it directly and indirectly affected me and what I was told up until last month.

Thanks for the updates, a very interesting perspective

I don’t think “trumping” is a concept that even Cosford would engage in. It’s not a competition. Likewise, I’m not sure there’s any question as to how interesting you might consider XT597 to be. The point is, it was the first British Phantom to arrive in the UK and it was the last to fly. It was also a research aircraft and a chase/calibration aircraft that supported many other programmes. So by any standards it’s a very significant aeroplane. Yes, it might not be any more significant than many other test aircraft but that’s irrelevant – the point is that it still exists and is in danger of being scrapped. Arguing that it might be better placed at Boscombe Down or Old Sarum also misses the point – Boscombe Down didn’t want it and Old Sarum couldn’t have it, hence it’s purchase by Everett. However, Cosford could take it, as it is directly connected with the RAF of course, it is directly connected with the Cold War, and directly connected with test and research work. So it fits three very clear categories that Cosford embraces. My gripe is that a lump of Lufwaffe wreckage doesn’t, therefore I find Cosford’s complete disinterest in XT597 remarkable.

I think regards the Phantom your somewhat missing the point . Its not dramatically more interesting than any number of aircraft that have operated from Boscombe Down over the years . If I recall correctly it carried out trials -it wasn’t used as a technology demonstrator but rather as a trials ship and to develop the principles of RN carrier Phantom operation.

In terms of the remit of Cosford -it doesn’t trump the likes of the EAP or the Jaguar ACT testbeds . I would argue if it belongs anywhere its at Boscombe Down or Old Sarum .