So who was first – Mustang or Lightning?

Yes, but on a limited scale.

Thanks for that, and also to NII_VVS for expanding my knowledge a little further.

Moggy

Well, since the VVS had been dragged into it…(!) Bager1968 is basically correct, although I might mention that old TB-3 did not operate over Germany. ‘Strategic’ operations, if we may say it like that, were simply not a priority of the VVS. This is well demonstrated by the fact that their entire effort in this regard was represented by a single unit– the ADD (which stands for… well, Long-Distance Aviation).

The ADD was equipped with many types, including numbers of TB-7/Pe-8s, Il-4s, Er-2s, Li-2s, Pe-2s an a handful of TB-3s in the early period. Of these, only the Pe-8 and Er-2 operated over Berlin prior to 1945– the so-called morale boosting raids on the Nazi capital. The ADD’s main remit was to hit distant high value targets (key bridges, harbours, supply depots, that sort), a bit like the special RAF units (617 and such). During 1945, of course, every description of Soviet aviation operated over Berlin, to include Po-2 biplanes flying down the boulevards below roof height and dropping grenades on the last lunatic Hitlerite hold-outs. The use of the B-24 was a post war activity, well covered by C. Geust’s work.

Soviet fighters have been mentioned, and prior to 1945 some examples of these could have appeared over Berlin. Of course, we would tend to ask, “for what reason?”, to which I could not give any kind of suitable answer. Reconnaissance versions of their Yak fighters (the Yak-7R and -9R, primarily) would have had the range to make such a sortie from early 1944, as would the Yak-9D and subsequently -9DD long-range fighter versions. However, I am not aware of any flights made by such aircraft over Berlin prior to 1945. I just cannot think of why they would appear there? And, in any case, it would never have been in the sort of massive numbers that the USAAF fighters did so, which I suspect as much as their presence was what impressed Herr Fatty the most….

So, did the Russians ever participate in strategic, rather than tactical, bombing?

Moggy

Yes, but on a limited scale.

The Soviet Air Force had two heavy bombers in WW2, one used mainly for tactical bombing, and one which did conduct some strategic bombing.

First was the obsolete Tupolev TB-3, which had been in the process of withdrawal from service in 1939, but which served as night bomber, cargo transport, and paratroop transport until 1945. These were used mainly in the large-scale battles, bombing large troop/equipment concentrations and interdicting supply routes and the like – including oil depots and a bridge in Romania. 818 were built.

The second was the Petlyakov Pe-8 (originally designated Tupolev TB-7). This was entering service in 1940, and flew a bombing mission over Berlin on the night of 10 August 1941. While most of its combat missions were directed at the German army, Luftwaffe airfields, and supply lines, some missions were “morale raids” that penetrated into Germany itself, with the goal of lowering German morale and raising that of the Soviet citizens and soldiers. Under 100 were built.

The Yermolayev YEr-2 was a long-range medium bomber that was used to bomb Berlin, the port facilities of Königsberg, and similar targets. Less than 400 were built.

About 30 B-24s of the 74 that crash-landed in the USSR during the war were put back into service with the Red Air Force.

So no sustained carefully-planned campaign against industrial targets, but a small number of long-range missions against the German infrastructure and population.

Why don’t we take a P-38 and a P-51 150nm offshore and shut down an engine on each aircraft. Then the P-51 fans can tell me over the radio which is the better aircraft. Don’t believe I will have to put up with their bleating for too long

So does that make a BV222 the best aircraft of WWII then? 😀

I recall Yak-9Us or some later models were seen over Berlin….later in the war ( I checked it ).

I would imagine USSR was like an anvil and allied strategic bombers were the sledgehammer in reshaping the Germany and forcing them to surrender.

Wasn’t the P-47 in more visible role over Germany ?

That raises an interesting question in my mind.

There would be no particular point in flying unaccompanied Yak fighters over the hot spot that was Berlin.

So, did the Russians ever participate in strategic, rather than tactical, bombing?

Moggy

Yak 9 Range 875KM where was the Russian front line in March 1944?

Why don’t we take a P-38 and a P-51 150nm offshore and shut down an engine on each aircraft. Then the P-51 fans can tell me over the radio which is the better aircraft. Don’t believe I will have to put up with their bleating for too long.

And America’s two highest scoring aces scored all their kills in?

What about PR Spitfires? They could reach Berlin.

PR Spitfires weren’t fighters 🙂

Yes, but even those who lived after being shot-down by one…..never saw one! 😉

Fair point Creaking Door, fair point :very_drunk:

What about PR Spitfires? They could reach Berlin.

Did the Serrate Mosquitos venture over there at all?

Yes, but even those who lived after being shot-down by one…..never saw one! 😉

Dear Moggy, can you cite source ? [oops… dismiss my request –*Google is my friend… thought it was an excerpt from a book]

Innocent question. Was that the first allied fighter over Berlin or the first in daylight? Did the Serrate Mosquitos venture over there at all?

Thanks Moggy

And another source

‘March 3, 1944 the P-38s failed to get the recall message and flew on to Berlin and became the first allied fighter over that city’

‘55th Fighter Group History at Nuthampstead’ by Frank Birtciel

http://www.station131.co.uk/55th.htm

Allow me:

3 March 1944; the Eighth Air Force planners scheduled a large-scale daylight raid on Berlin. Unfortunately, the weather was very poor and most of the planes were recalled. The 55th Fighter Group did not receive a recall order and arrived over Berlin to rendezvous with the bombers which did not materialize. Lieutenant Colonel Jack S. Jerkins was leading the 55th that day and the Group made history by becoming the first American fighter unit to penetrate the Berlin skies during the war.

http://www.station131.co.uk/55th.htm

Moggy

55th FG P-38’s ????

Will try and dig out some details

Chris

Considering the altitude at which P-51 and P-38 flew over Berlin, there is just not a chance that he could distinguish between the two. Actually, his original quote does not mention any specific type of fighter… he just said “fighters”… just do a little research on Google, and you will find that by yourself.

Perhaps Topspeed was considering his general state of health, physical and mental, as much as his age!;)

Oi!

Less of the agesist stuff. He was only 51 in 1944.

Moggy 😡