Soldiers in Uniform Turned-Away from Coventry Bar

I don’t think the regulations quite stretch to that level, although some stores have on occasion refused to sell alcohol to uniformed personnel. The regulations don’t specifically mention that scenario. The supermarkets/NAAFI stores on bases when I was in didn’t stop uniformed personnel buying alcohol.

TEEJ, does this also cover buying alcohol in a supermarket with other shopping?

I always thought that the ruling came from the MOD , that servicemen should not be served in uniform , all servicemen are told this , booze in civvies only , and most breweries follow this up in staff /manager training ,

You are correct on the ruling and it doesn’t matter if alcohol is involved. The same happened during 2009 after a military funeral and got blown out of all proprotion. The MoD regulations are clear on wearing uniform in public and in regards to licensed premises.

I agree it is a contentious issue. I’ve been to several military funerals whilst serving and as a group we didn’t push our luck in licensed premises whilst in uniform. Regardless of the occasion wearing uniform in bars or public houses is not permitted. Unfortunately there is no exemptions except where the chain of command is involved and permission is granted by the licence owner.

The incident during 2009 and this one could have been avoided with a bit of pre-planning by the Chain of Command or by the senior rank in the group. I re-emphasis that it is difficult situation and especially involving military funerals but why put the owners of licensed premises under such pressure?

Army’s Briefing Note ABN 31/08 clearly states:

c. Occasions on which uniform is not to be worn, unless specifically approved by the Chain of Command:

(1) When visiting public houses.

RAF regs

0113.

Occasion on which uniform is not to be worn.

b. Visits to licensed premises (including when not consuming alcohol), except when specifically approved by the Chain of Command.’

service personel public bars

I always thought that the ruling came from the MOD , that servicemen should not be served in uniform , all servicemen are told this , booze in civvies only , and most breweries follow this up in staff /manager training ,
and I suspect its a wind up the ‘public outrage’ non story
As this has been in force since the IRA pub bombings in the seventies and eighties it shouldn’t surprise anyone , even more so in these heightened security risk days . it gets trotted out quite often .

ppp, if we’re generalising, and stereotyping people, I’d say I’ve seen FAR more trouble in my local pubs caused by Students than I’ve ever seen caused by soldiers.

You can defend the actions of the landlord as much as you like, but I think his own actions post event prove that he got it wrong on this occasion.

Also, yes, I know that a landlord can refuse entry to someone who they think will cause trouble… That is perfectly reasonable. What is not reasonable is to say, you’re a soldier in uniform, therefore you’re likely to cause trouble. That is unacceptable.

IF those soldiers had already had a ‘skin full’… Then yes, it may have been justified. But as it was, this was an overreaction by the landlord, and I think he accepts that.

Given the circumstances of the event that led to the soldiers in question being banned, ppp, I think it unlikely that they would have caused trouble, don’t you?

I accept that the bar owners did not know the circumstances of the day (although they really should have!) but I’m afraid the ban was just an application of a “tar all with the same brush” approach. Not all squaddies are badly behaved trouble making hooligans. Far from it.

If I owned a bar, they’d be welcome. Though I’d probably ban politicians and bankers.

Emphasis added…

Despite you being ex-RAF, I get the feeling you don’t think much of combat vets or their military training.
Your general statements make them sound like dangerous dogs or animals with no self control.

Based on your assessment, should their wives and children be afraid of them when they return?
Perhaps you better call social services…:rolleyes:

Yes, PTSD is real and some suffer from it, but you make all of them sound dangerous.

Far from it, I am 100% behind our Servicemen and their families, I still have friends in the Services and have even sent care packages out to the friends of a US Marine who’s father I know and who were getting nothing from home, mail or otherwise, and yes I think the training they get is very good, but yes there can be a strain on troops coming from a combat situation straight back to the UK after a tour, that is why they give them a period on the way back to decompress, it reduces the effects.

If you do not know what I mean see

http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/LOP/ResearchPublications/prb0720-e.htm

http://www.aff.org.uk/linkedfiles/aff/the_journal/armyfamiliesjournalissue84-autumn2011.pdf

.

ppp

You have a right to your view. I happen to disagree with you, as is my right.

Thankfully, we both have that right.

Because of men just like these soldiers.

[QUOTE=J Boyle;190617

Yes, PTSD is real and some suffer from it, but you make all of them sound dangerous.[/QUOTE]

John, I think one should have to experience what these guys have been through. Even the “Even tempered” ones like us all get to a point where they snap.
Not in the same area, but you should try being a Copper for 30 yrs, there were times I could have snapped and killed some prats I had to deal with.
These soldiers deserve to be given sympathy, from us, after all it’s they who are on the front line, so that you and I can sleep soundly in bed at night, just bear with them, they want support, nothing more. 🙂
Jim.
Lincoln .7

My contribution is this

TOMMY

by Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)

I went into a public-‘ouse to get a pint o’ beer,
The publican ‘e up an’ sez, “We serve no red-coats here.”
The girls be’ind the bar they laughed an’ giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an’ to myself sez I:
O it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, go away”;
But it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but ‘adn’t none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-‘alls,
But when it comes to fightin’, Lord! they’ll shove me in the stalls!
For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, wait outside”;
But it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide,
The troopship’s on the tide, my boys, the troopship’s on the tide,
O it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide.

Yes, makin’ mock o’ uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an’ they’re starvation cheap;
An’ hustlin’ drunken soldiers when they’re goin’ large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin’ in full kit.
Then it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, ‘ow’s yer soul?”
But it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll.

We aren’t no thin red ‘eroes, nor we aren’t no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An’ if sometimes our conduck isn’t all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don’t grow into plaster saints;
While it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, fall be’ind”,
But it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind,
There’s trouble in the wind, my boys, there’s trouble in the wind,
O it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind.

You talk o’ better food for us, an’ schools, an’ fires, an’ all:
We’ll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don’t mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow’s Uniform is not the soldier-man’s disgrace.
For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!”
But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;
An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool — you bet that Tommy sees!

PPP you are most definitely generalizing and your “objective” point of view is anything but…

Well you have to remember you do not train soldiers to sweet talk and council people, you train them to be aggressive and kill people, top that off these days were you have troops coming home from combat where they are the Police, where they are using the skills you brought to the fore in their personality and then expect them to “switch” off from that role it ain’t going to happen overnight, so you will get fighting etc..

Emphasis added…

Despite you being ex-RAF, I get the feeling you don’t think much of combat vets or their military training.
Your general statements make them sound like dangerous dogs or animals with no self control.

Based on your assessment, should their wives and children be afraid of them when they return?
Perhaps you better call social services…:rolleyes:

Yes, PTSD is real and some suffer from it, but you make all of them sound dangerous.

Tony, I’m not sure if you’re right there. I’m not able to check the details from where I am at the moment, but remember that B&B owner who refused to allow a gay couple to stay… I’m sure they were convicted in court. I’m sure if you’re running a business, you can’t refuse a customer because of their race, religion etc*

I dont have the facts in front of me, but I’m sure it was something like that.

*including the British army!

Not the same thing. A bar owner, I’ll say that again, a bar owner, may refuse entry to anyone, or any group of people if it is felt they will cause trouble or if they are too drunk.

Latest from the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-18657453

Tony, I’m not sure if you’re right there. I’m not able to check the details from where I am at the moment, but remember that B&B owner who refused to allow a gay couple to stay… I’m sure they were convicted in court. I’m sure if you’re running a business, you can’t refuse a customer because of their race, religion etc*

I dont have the facts in front of me, but I’m sure it was something like that.

*including the British army!

He has the right to refuse to serve anyone… He has to live with that decision however, it will dent his business if people view it in a bad light. That is why we have a democracy and he has the freedom and right to refuse to serve people, a democracy these guys fight to preserve…..
You know when I was in the RAF at Odiham tons of pubs had ” No Squaddies” signs in the windows around Aldershot… Today it would be frowned upon, by the way we went to one, popped in and asked if we were welcome as we were RAF… They were more than pleased to serve us, just NO Squaddies LOL.

As for Soldiers fighting etc… Well you have to remember you do not train soldiers to sweet talk and council people, you train them to be aggressive and kill people, top that off these days were you have troops coming home from combat where they are the Police, where they are using the skills you brought to the fore in their personality and then expect them to “switch” off from that role it ain’t going to happen overnight, so you will get fighting etc..

I could not believe in Iraq when they said the war is over and the troops on the front line that yesterday had been shooting and killing these people were then expected to Police a country and the same people they had been killing the day before, something they were I’ll equipped and not trained to do… No wonder the Country fell apart…. They lost the war and the people in those couple of weeks because the USA had not planned a replacement Police Force, sanitation, electricity and food and water support…
Remember these folks were promised things would be better without Saddam to wake up in the morning with crap flowing in the Streets, widespread looting and anarchy, no water or food and no lights….. No wonder they rapidly learnt to resent us and the country fell apart.

I think this is disgraceful. If they were refused entry due to their race, or colour, the landlord would be in front of a judge by now… Whatever the landlords reason, it’s discrimination and it shouldn’t be allowed.

and there you have it in a word, “discrimination“, had it been “travellers”, “Christians”, “Muslims” or even the board of directors from Barclays Bank, the press would be all over it.

The point is that this was in the morning and the soldiers were trying to buy hot drinks. Or is ppp (who were you on this forum in your previous identity?) suggesting that the business concerned has, as a rule, the sort of clientele who would indulge in violence with members of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces?

Regards,

kev35

Soldiers aren’t a race.

Thank you for pointing that out to me ppp, but I’m already well aware of it.

Thats why I said its corporate racism, rather than racism… There is a difference, one is based on your ‘race’ (as I’m sure you know)… The is based on who you work for… I’m sure google will tell you all about it.

Soldiers aren’t a race. My views are perfectly objective. Bar owners would I’m sure welcome the custom of soldiers, but clearly having that custom is evidently driving other customers away. They want to retain their licence, and that means refusing entry to those who may cause trouble. If you don’t like it then maybe you’d be better off directing your energies at getting soldiers to behave themselves in bars.