Some questions about Tora, Tora, Tora

James, you know better than that…( unlike many here, you usually don’t go for cheap laughs to make the U.S. look bad…:D)

History lesson time… (did I sound like Mr. Chips?)

The title was Sercetary of War (whether there was a war or not) until September, 1948. The person is appointed by the President and sits in the President’s cabinet and is the civil leader of the military…

Why the shift to “Defense” rather than “War”?

The War Department was in charge of the Army (including the US Army Air Force, though after the 1942 re-org it was already virtually an independent service from the Army Ground Forces). Prior to 1947 there was a co-equal Navy Department with its own cabinet secretary, also responsible for the US Marine Corps. The 1947 reorg renamed ‘War’, ‘Army’ and folded it, the Navy Dept and a new AF Dept together under one cabinet secretary as Dept of Defense. ‘Euphemism’* can be suggested as reason for the particular name ‘Defense’, but naming the whole thing ‘War’ would have implied the Army ran things, according to previous US terminology, if ‘names are important’.

*one man’s ‘euphemism’ might be another man’s setting out of a principal against which a society or organization can be judged. If you pursue wars that aren’t legitimately defensive (of yourself or others), you’ve broken the standard you set in declaring ‘defense’ as the military’s purpose. The intellectual change in the West, picking up serious steam after WWI, was concept that aggrandizing war (or conquest/colonialism in the now ‘third world’) wasn’t OK. Before that, it wasn’t even agreed it wasn’t OK. That’s progress, to take a ‘glass half full’ point of view. Although, it obviously doesn’t mean all wars since then by everyone calling their military ‘defense forces’ have all been justified, so that’s potential hyprocisy that wasn’t there before, to take the glass half empty view.

Joe

Interesting stuff. I guess this all ties in with something I noticed a long time ago. The NZ Amry’s infantry cap badges during the war carried the motto ONWARD whereas today the same badge has DEFENCE in its place.

We have a Ministry of Defence – I wonder, and will try to find out, if it was originally a War Office instead. I’m surprised it hasn’t changed to Ministry of Peacekeeping and Pacifism. I’m all for peace and the good wor our military does in the world but I don’t think theyre much of a ‘defence’ any more.

One other notable incident of US reading of Japanese codes (and ‘payback’ for Pearl Harbor) was the interception and shooting-down of the bomber-transport carrying Admiral Yamamoto by P-38 fighters.

James, I agree with your comment on euphemisms…
In our modern world, people like nice tidy names for things.
In the military, no one want’s to admit that their real mission is…if worse comes to worse…is to kill people and destroy things (A female B-1 crewmember I knew used the term “Break their toys”.)

Still, if you’re not in a shooting war, defense does seem to make sense…but then again as a former PR-guy for the USAF, I’d be expected to say that…

Not that I ever took the words too seriously…In the 80s I had a personal license plate on my car that read “Delphi”.
One day the wing commander stopped me in the parking lot and asked what it meant…I explained that in ancient mythology the oracle of Deplhi was known for giving vague and ambiguous answers…and since I was a military public affairs officer….
I think he saw the humor…
In any rate, I survived.

James, you know better than that…( unlike many here, you usually don’t go for cheap laughs to make the U.S. look bad…:D)

Not an anti-US comment anyway, John. The British War Office was retitled the Ministry of Defence (I don’t know when, or care – it’s still a euphemism – def: ‘polite word for something less nice’). Let’s not forget that Hitler and Stalin were ‘defending’ according to their propaganda when they invaded those nasty neighbours.

I didn’t mention the British version earlier, because Britain’s been fighting a war (sorry, defencing’) somewhere on the globe pretty continually for the last few centuries, so there’s not been much peace to be defence in, rather than war. Rather like the US’ being at war permanently, somewhere since ’45.

Since ’45, there’s been an appalling drive to military euphemism because it counteracts (to some degree) the reality of the case. From ‘warfighters’ (Puhleese) to ‘collateral damage’ etc.

Cheers,

Defens/ce is a modern euphemism, so people don’t know what they are really up to – see Orwell’s 1984 for Ministry of Truth ‘Minitrue’ etc and note how prescient he was. ‘A rose by any other name…?’ Balls. Names fool people.

Cheers,

James, you know better than that…( unlike many here, you usually don’t go for cheap laughs to make the U.S. look bad…:D)

History lesson time… (did I sound like Mr. Chips?)

The title was Sercetary of War (whether there was a war or not) until September, 1948. The person is appointed by the President and sits in the President’s cabinet and is the civil leader of the military…a key function is that he appoints the chief of staff and the military leaders who must be approved by the Senate..a subtle reminder that the civil leaders are in control of the military).

The National Defense Act was passed that year which, nost noteably, created the U.S. Air Force as a seperate service. The Secretary of War was retitled as Secretary of Defense….

Why the shift to “Defense” rather than “War”?

Nothing sinister about it, I suspect that the U.S. was “war weary” after WWII, and the term defense conveyed a less aggressive stance…something that wouyld be helpfull in the soon to commence “cold war”.
And like Dave pointed out, it seemed strange to have a secretary of war if you’re at peace.

That, and they had to order more stationary anyway..so a name change made sense. 😀

There’s a really good section on the US code-breaking before the war, through Pearl Harbour and running up to the Battle of Midway in Peter C. Smith’s ‘Midway: Dauntless Victory’

Regarding Crete you’re probably right that the Allies wouldn’t have had much hope. If you want two great books to read seek out Kiwi At Large and A Kiwi Vagabond by Errol ‘Bill’ Allison. It’s a stunning book, he fought at Crete and in North Africa and in greece, and was captured in Africa, and was a POW till the end of the war. When he came home to NZ he was psychologically screwed – this is not dwelled on in the book, but I have spoken with him personally and he told me his life was dreadful, his marriage fell apart and he hated his old job as a teacher, so he decided in about 1954 there was one thing for it. He sold up everything and with just 50 pounds he set off from NZ and walked all the way back to Europe. The book is about his journey and most especially about his revisiting the battlegorunds. He ended up meeting a girl in Crete and lived with them for some months, and he explored all the places where he’d fought, slept, ate, saw mates die, etc, and wrote his feelings down. It’s a fantastically well written book, and very detailed and touching. Anyway, one point I wanted to make was when he visited the graveyards in Crete in the 1950’s he said all the Allied graves were perfectly well kept but he was shocked to find the German cemetary had, after the war, been smashed to pieces by the locals, ploughed over and allowed to become all overgrown, It’s very understandable but i wonder what the situation is nowadays, has the German Government restored their cemetery I wonder or are their boys lying in unmarked graves under rubble and scrub?

I can’t recall off handwhich book came first but the first one was his journey to Engalnd via all the battlefields ad prison camps (he even sought out the Italian prison guards who mistreated him and visitied them in the 1950’s to see how they were, and he blagged his way into Communist Poland to visit his old camp, which was very tense too). And the second book was written a few years later when he’d had enough of the UK and walked home to NZ again.A remarkable man.

A final note, in the 1950’s when he got to France he ran into an older kiwi couple and it transpired the old man had been in the First World War and was also on a pilgrimage to his own battle sites, with his wife. Bill accompanied them to a French cemetery where the old digger was looking up old mates, it must have been amazing these two generations of old soldiers on their journey back to the horrors of their past to sort their emotions out properly.

Sorry for the aside, back to the thread topic….

There’s never been much intelligence behind the war with Al Queda but that’s another story.

Hmm. Military intelegence is about knowing what’s going on, not if it’s a good idea or not. Then there’s if you don’t listen to what people tell you of course.

Meanwhile there’s Dixon’s “On the Psychology of Military Incompetence” on why Generals need better potty training, IIRC. 😮

The biggest problem for Tiny Freyberg on Crete was getting shot. When he was carted off to the aid station his four subordinates all decided to take his place and each began running the battle differently, causing too much confusion. But yes, they snatched a terrible defeat from the jaws of what technically should have been a victory. The German paratroops were initially like rats in a trap.

I don’t think the Allied forces could’ve won that. Freyberg didn’t think so at the time, IIRC. However they did exact the maximum losses to the Fallschirmjäger and, critically, their aircraft, so they were never used again as paratroops, and it depleted the Luftwaffe’s ability to supply significantly. A magnificent achievement.

The taranto raid is mentioned by both sides in Tora, Tora, Tora, as is the details of the toprdoes bottoming out and needing modification. I’m wondering, has there ever been a film about the Taranto raid though? I don’t know much about it but I know enough to judge it would make a great film.

No, yes, one of the many better ideas than remaking the Dam Busters.

Cheers,

The Japanese code in question was called Purple (by the US) and was surprisingly based on the twenty-six characters of the ‘English’ alphabet! It was broken by both the British and the US but whether separately or in co-operation I’m not sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PURPLE

I’m wondering, has there ever been a film about the Taranto raid though?

I don’t know much about it but I know enough to judge it would make a great film.

It would make a great film…..no need to build any flying replica Swordfish either! :diablo:

Regarding the U.S breaking the japanese code system in comunication, IIRC, no ENIGMA was involved. I read this years ago, so there might be holes in it, but as far as I remember the U.S intelligence secured a more or less complete set of japanese code books from a whaler that was sinking near the antartic in 1939/1940. By the use of those books, they broke most of the coded messages sent by R/T.

Maybe my memory is not so great, so corrections would be welcome:D

I knew about the Poles securing the first Enigma machine, an incredible story of courage behind that from memory.

There’s never been much intelligence behind the war with Al Queda but that’s another story.

The biggest problem for Tiny Freyberg on Crete was getting shot. When he was carted off to the aid station his four subordinates all decided to take his place and each began running the battle differently, causing too much confusion. But yes, they snatched a terrible defeat from the jaws of what technically should have been a victory. The German paratroops were initially like rats in a trap.

The taranto raid is mentioned by both sides in Tora, Tora, Tora, as is the details of the toprdoes bottoming out and needing modification. I’m wondering, has there ever been a film about the Taranto raid though? I don’t know much about it but I know enough to judge it would make a great film.

First up, one of the early characters is introduced as Henry Stimpson, Secretary of War. Is this the correct title? If so, why did America have a Secretary of War whilst they were a neutral nation and not at war?I would have thought he’d be titled Secretary of Defense?

Defens/ce is a modern euphemism, so people don’t know what they are really up to – see Orwell’s 1984 for Ministry of Truth ‘Minitrue’ etc and note how prescient he was. ‘A rose by any other name…?’ Balls. Names fool people.

Secondly, the spying and encryption guys feature highly, and they show a decoder that they use to decode Japanese messages that were being sent from Japan to their US Embassy. Where and how did the US military come by this machine? Was it actually an Enigma machine like the Germans used, and was this supplied by British forces to the US military? Also was the decoding of Embassy messages in peacetime like this technically illegal? I know they all try to do it, just wondering.

In order, I don’t know; Different to the Enigma (the pioneering work on which was done by the Poles, before the British, and the Poles handed their work onto the Brits by the way.); therefore no; err, yes, you really are from nice New Zealand, aren’t you. 😀

All nations try and intercept other nation’s communications in peacetime, as far as is possible, driven by risk – that’s why they all try and use secure /coded systems. Conversely, for the conspiracy nuts, the messages rarely are easy to crack or say: ‘We’ll attack here, on Thursday, and our fatal weakness is just over there’ as per the movies. There’s an excellent book on military intelligence in wartime by John Keegan – Intelligence in War: Knowledge of the Enemy from Napoleon to Al-Qaeda (2003) ISBN 0-375-40053-2 which deals with the limitations of intelligence; one case study is that great Kiwi solder Freyberg on Crete, and how even an almost ideal intelligence situation (knowing exactly what they enemy intend to do) can’t solve your problems if you are short of strength.

The Japanese also decided that shallow running torpedoes were a possible good idea from study of a certain RN FAA Swordfish raid on Taranto…

Cheers,

Much of the superstructure of USS Arizona was cut away during the wartime salvage operations and much was recovered including two complete triple 14 inch gun turrets that were mounted ashore (but unfortunately scrapped post war).

Salvage of the complete ship was contemplated after the attack but she isn’t actually in as good condition as the photo would suggest. Her back is broken and she suffered a magazine explosion that blew the forward turret overboard.

I’m not sure that the encoding machines used by the Japanese were related to Enigma although the basic operating principal may have been similar. The structure of the Japanese language would surely cause problems since I think it is made up of hundreds of characters whereas Enigma was designed to substitute only the twenty-six characters of the ‘English’ alphabet.

its a war grave so they can’t touch it

the parks department monitor it closely but nothing can be done “hands on” at all – its a slight leak that will go for years but I think they can catch it if it increases.

there have been a few shows on the discovery channel about it, they cycle every few days/weeks, well worth a look

Thanks for that, i never knew there was superstructure above the surface. I always thought there was a floating memorial above the spot that people boated out to, and that was it. I know the oil supposedly bubbles up still, why that was never cleaned up I’ll never know, it must have been a huge pollutant over the years.

Only the hull of the USS Arizona is under the surface of the water and several large pieces, notably one of the gun turret barbettes, are above the surface so the water where she sank could well be only 40 feet deep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:DN-SD-06-09336.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Arizona_Memorial_3.jpg

In fact the water of Pearl Harbor was so shallow that the Japanese aerial torpedoes had to be modified so that they could be dropped without sticking into the bottom.

Henry Lewis Stimson (September 21, 1867 – October 20, 1950) was an American statesman, who served as Secretary of War, Governor-General of the Philippines, and Secretary of State.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Stimson

Guess it was no different to the UK having a War Department back in them thar’ olden days!