South Africa LPD/LPH Ships + Helicopters

Why bother, what would it need escorting against, as long as it was operating within the sub saharan Africa sphere there is really nothing that could pose a threat that could not be dealt with by small calibre guns and/or the embarked helicopters.

so their be on their lonesome during ops :confused: yes i know their won’t be any major threats but its rare to say the lest to have an ship as large as that to travel alone

would the LPD be escorted during OPs. and could any of the other African nations share escorting jobs

Why bother, what would it need escorting against, as long as it was operating within the sub saharan Africa sphere there is really nothing that could pose a threat that could not be dealt with by small calibre guns and/or the embarked helicopters.

This is the entire fleet:

• Valour-class frigates (MEKO A-200SAN)

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• SAS Amatola (F145)
• SAS Isandlwana (F146)
• SAS Spioenkop (F147)
• SAS Mendi (F148)

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• Warrior-class strike craft

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• SAS Issac Dyobha (P1565)
• SAS Galeshewe (P1567)
• SAS Makhanda (P1569)

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• Type-209.1400 submarines

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• SAS ‘Manthathisi (S101)
• SAS Charlotte Maxeke (S102)
• SAS Queen Modjadji (S103) [to be commissioned March ’08]

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• Other ships

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• SAS Drakensberg (A301) fleet replenishment ship
• SAS Protea hydrographic survey vessel
• Two mine counter-measure vessels
• Misc smaller vessels/patrol boats

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The three strike craft are to be withdrawn from service this year, to be replaced by a new multipurpose hull type sometime in the next six years (an RFT has yet to be issued). There was serious talk about acquiring a fifth frigate, but it appears that was dumped in favour of the LHDs.

The frigates are obviously the only real escorts in this list. Each is armed with a 76mm gun, 8 Exocet Block 2 SSMs, 16 Umkhonto SAMs, various close-in weapons systems and a single SuperLynx 300 Mk64. Not exactly a highly-protective screen, but possibly sufficient for the threat scenarios the SAN envisages in African operations.

would the LPD be escorted during OPs. and could any of the other African nations share escorting jobs

3 full-size, full-spec LHDs is almost certainly unrealistic for a country like South Africa. However, I think 2 smaller, downgraded derivatives of an existing LHD design would be much cheaper, and probably achievable.

The key is that the SAN needs to be realistic about the LHDs’ intended mission. South Africa needs regional power projection ships tailored for humanitarian and logistical operations in low-threat waters. That’s very different from a 20,000+ ton BPE/Mistral-style design capable of global power projection and amphibious combat operations in medium-to-high threat waters. Specs that the SAN could easily downgrade include the combat system, weapons, HQ facilities, helicopter facilities, endurance etc.

The ideal starting point IMHO would be the BPC 160 design, a smaller variant of the French Mistral class proposed by DCN, for cost and technical reasons. Here’s what I think the SAN’s “Modified BPC 160” should look like:

Modified BPC 160

Displacement: 17,000t
Troops : 500, in higher density accommodation
Helos: 8-10 helos, 5 landing spots, 1 lift
Vehicles : 100
Landing Craft : 4 LCMs, no LCAC capability
HQ: Small 50 man HQ
Hospital: 70 beds
Combat system: Downgraded Senit, ~500 tracks
Communications: Inmarsat, Fleetsatcom
Weapons: 2x 30mm gun (rely on portable SAMs or escort in case of real air threat)
Regional endurance

Compare to Mistral:

Displacement: 21,000t (25% larger)
Troops : 450
Helos: 16 helos, 6 landing spots, 2 lifts
Vehicles : same
Landing Craft : same # of LCMs, but also LCAC-compatible (requires high-powered ventilation equipment)
HQ: Large 150 man, NATO compatible HQ
Hospital: same
Combat system: Senit 9 (~2000 tracks?)
Communications: Syracuse (French satellite comms), Fleetsatcom & Inmarsat
Weapons: 2x 30mm, 2x Simbad SAM
Global endurance

Basically, it would be as capable as the Mistral class for humanitarian & logistic operations (for which you need troops, vehicles and hospitals), but less capable for combat operations (for which you need a large HQ, powerful combat system & communications, more helos and self-defense weapons). By leveraging an existing design, reducing the specs and displacement, and building more blocks in Polish shipyards (as was already partially done with Mistral), I’m sure you could cut the ships’ cost by another 40%.

The Mistrals were already cheap at 650MM euros for 2 ships, so the SAN could get 2 17,000t LHDs for ~400MM euros (US$500MM). That would be excellent value for money. 😎

Unlikely. They’re all either much poorer than South Africa, have far fewer people, or both. Most are both, & see SADC as a way to hang off South Africas coat tails.

Unfortunately, Swerve is correct. The other SADC nations just do not have money to spend. SADC is really South Africa attempting to uplift those countries around it. I’m not sure how successful this will be.

With South Africa in the top 10% largest economies in the world, I know that there has been pressure on them to increase the % defence budget and so play a larger role in peacekeeping. The defence budget as a % of GDP is relatively low.

The problem being faced is which of the services gets the largest chunk of a small pie.

As for having the money to buy such ships, well if you go back to what you originally said:

One of these is to be operated to some extent on behalf of other African countries, most notably those in SADC.

Then the cost issue also becomes void, as the other signatory countries will also be putting money towards the project- right?

Unlikely. They’re all either much poorer than South Africa, have far fewer people, or both. Most are both, & see SADC as a way to hang off South Africas coat tails.

Well this is all certainly one of the most interesting projects I have seen in a long time, thanks for bringing it up, I did a piece a little while ago on the SAN (do a search and you’ll find it), as this is one of my favourite navies.

Impi: mate you raise very interesting arguments in conversation and I find it hard to disagree with a lot of what you have siad, but I do know one thing for sure, the SAN is looking at replacing Drakensburg with one of these LHD’s, simply because having a fleet replenishing ship with a mainly coastal force has proven to be a big waste of time and money, thus when she has left port most of the time over the last 10-15 years, it has been in an Amphibious Support role or Patrol Vessel and not a Replishment role as she was originally designed. Now this argument could be countered withthe aquisition of the Amatola class but that becomes void if you look at the age and capabilites of the Drak.

As for having the money to buy such ships, well if you go back to what you originally said:

The SAN wants to buy at least two (maybe even three) LHDs in the 20 000t range. One of these is to be operated to some extent on behalf of other African countries, most notably those in SADC.

Then the cost issue also becomes void, as the other signatory countries will also be putting money towards the project- right? That said, does that also mean that the other countries would also get a say in which design is chosen (thoughts of the F-35 come to play here). If this is the case then a department would have to be set up with all members studying the designs.

Now the idea of tacking an order on to the end of our purchase is interesting. We have had joint ops with the SAN and even had joint missions with them, they have proven to be a very capable force over the years and the new ships coming on line now are only going to add to that capability and professionalism. As for training for these vessels, perhaps a deal could be struck along similar lines to what the SAN has with the training of their Sub personel (they are being trained in India with the IN who have similar vessels). Thus they could be trained in a country that also has similar vessels, though one flaw to this is the purchase of the MHD-150 design. I seriously doubt that the BPE design would be chosen simply because they are bigger than what is being sought (27000TD as opposed to 20000TD), I wonder if the Dutch would throw in their offer, their design was interesting and has a load of potential.

Ohhh and Impi- mate they are not Canberra Class LHDs we are getting, they are Adelaide Class, I realise the confusion these will cause with the Adelaide class FFG’s but IMHO due to the first two FFG’s being retired and the rest gaining a major warfighting upgrade- I am now calling these the Sydney class after the first of the vessels to get the upgrade.

This MHD-150 design is interesting though, Five helo spots ion the upper deck with a sixth on the aft platform lower down- odd combinatiobn in anyones mind but if it works, well role with it- it just reminds me of the prewar carrier designs that had multiple decks for aviation, though the lower ones were used for flying off but the helo these days is a different machin altogether as we all know.

For more info in this design click here

This is the entire fleet:

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The three strike craft are to be withdrawn from service this year, to be replaced by a new multipurpose hull type sometime in the next six years (an RFT has yet to be issued). There was serious talk about acquiring a fifth frigate, but it appears that was dumped in favour of the LHDs.

The frigates are obviously the only real escorts in this list. Each is armed with a 76mm gun, 8 Exocet Block 2 SSMs, 16 Umkhonto SAMs, various close-in weapons systems and a single SuperLynx 300 Mk64. Not exactly a highly-protective screen, but possibly sufficient for the threat scenarios the SAN envisages in African operations.

how dose the rest of the SA navy look for escorts ect

There is the 4 Valour class frigates and 3 Type-209 submarines, the rest is smaller patrol ships and other vessels. Whilst by conventional standards this is a pathetic escort force for 3 large amphibious ships it should be remembered that if they are only intended to operate up and down the African coast it is unlikely that they will face anything nastier than an RPG fired from very small boat, a threat which embarked helicopters and small calibre guns should be more than capable of dealing with.

how dose the rest of the SA navy look for escorts ect

target, no problem, glad to help.

Unicorn, I agree. Right now, Project Millennium is looking very similar to the RAN’s Canberra-class procurement and the SAN could gain a lot of valuable experience and advice from the Aussies on this one. In fact, if I had things my way I’d join the Canberra-class program, tacking the SAN’s ships onto the Australian order so as to benefit from some level of economies of scale. It would also enhance commonality and interoperability, making things easier if the SAN and RAN engage in joint ops sometime (something that’s looking increasingly likely).

Incidentally, the Canberra-class is another example of why I think the LHDs are a bit ambitious for the SA Navy at the moment. The Australian defence budget is US$19 billion, whereas the South African defence budget is only US$3.8 billion. Yet the SANDF wants to buy the exact same ships as the ADF? It just doesn’t make sense, if the SA government wants the kind of capability provided by LHDs, it should expand the defence budget proportionately. Otherwise we’re going to be stuck 10 years from now with some of the sweetest kit in the world and neither the trained personnel nor the funding to use them. What’s the point?

Perhaps they should approach the ADF, who are embarking on the same journey.

Unicorn

Impi, Thanks very much for this very valuable information

They are to be acquired under Project Millennium, though the full requirements have not yet been fleshed out as the SAN’s waiting on a project study to be completed. But I do have the preliminary ship types and requirements under consideration.

The SAN wants to buy at least two (maybe even three) LHDs in the 20 000t range. One of these is to be operated to some extent on behalf of other African countries, most notably those in SADC. Having considered LPDs, the SAN decided the extra capability provided by LHDs was worth the expense. There’s talk about an in-service date of 2013 at the moment, but that may be overly ambitious.

Right now, the three designs under consideration are the Mistral-class, Navantia’s BPE and ThyssenKrupp’s MHD-150. They range in capability from being able to carry 11 helicopters and 750 troops to 16 helicopters and 1000 troops, along with 12 or so tanks and a few dozen armoured vehicles. In another words, a single ship would be able to land an entire battalion (with their vehicles) plus a single tank squadron, or possibly a reinforced battalion group.

Current plans call for embarked troops to be drawn from 44 Parachute Regiment, 6 SA Infantry Battalion (Air Assault) and 9 SA Infantry Battalion (which is to become an amphibious unit). Though the SAN is also keen to deploy its new Maritime Reaction Force (sort of like a limited Marine unit) off the ships. If a mechanised response were required, 61 Mechanised Infantry Battalion Group or 1 SA Infantry Battalion could be embarked.

At the moment, there’s no word on how the air component will be structured, and whether new helicopters will be procured. But I don’t see space in the budget for any new heli buys, so it’s likely that the existing Air Force Oryx and A109 helicopters will be deployed to the ships on an ad hoc basis although this will be a serious strain on capabilities. There is a rumour that a number of surplus CH-47Ds may be acquired cheaply (read: donated), but for now that’s only a rumour and is unsubstantiated.

To be perfectly honest though, I’m not really in favour of this acquisition. The cost is enormous: We’re looking at at least R8 billion ($1.16 billion) per ship, and that’s not including ancillary equipment such as helicopters and landing craft. What’s more, the SANDF has no experience in large-scale amphibious operations and no equipment for it, meaning it will need to go through a very costly acquisition and training period while also trying to write an entirely new operating doctrine. Considering the underfunding problems already plaguing the military, I think it’s folly to be spending so much money now and it will inevitably result in a reduction somewhere else like training and ops.

That said, I think the idea of procuring LHDs is fundamentally a good one. They offer fantastic capability. But I would rather see the decision pushed back until at least 2014, to give the budget time to deal with the acquisition costs from the Arms Deal, the new Badger IFV and the A400Ms.