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Soviet SAG vs Japanese navy SAG 80s era combat

How do the 2 compare in 1980s era

Soviet SAG
1 Kiev 8 x SSN-12 sandbox
2 Kyndas 8 x SSN-3 b Shaddock
2 Sovermenyy 8 x SSN-22
2 Udaloy no SSM but extensive SAM
supported by 4 SSN like Victor III or Charlie I/II with type 76 longe range ASUW torpedoes or SSN-7/9

vs

4 Hatsuyuki class DD + 3 Asagiri class destroyers
each with 8 x Harpoon
with ASROC

supposing neither side has any decisive air support

IMHO these are the pros and cons of each side

Jap
Modern ASM like Harpoon
good anti-missile defences like CIWS and sea sparrow

Soviet
mixed type of ASM
Longer ranged high speed ASM like P-500 bazalt and SSN-22 are advanced and former is long range
SSN-7/9 can be fired by submerged submarines out of range of DD ASROC
long range SSN-3b is primitive system and kyndas are not well protected with CIWS and SAM

what do you guys think ? which one will win

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By: Al. - 2nd July 2017 at 21:55

If the Kyndas were the closest units then the JMSDF might have been able to split their resources and take out two rather one

I do not pretend to be an expert on skimmers, but I think that you miss a fundamental difference between 80s era Sea Sparrow and Evolved Sea Sparrow. The latter is a capable system fitted alongside (a variety of) illuminators which can do clever time -sharing tricks. The former was/is little better than useless.

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By: nastle - 27th June 2017 at 22:26

but surely the JMSDF should have been able to knock out the kyndas with ease and their sea sparrow missiles can dispatch their SSN-3b/c

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By: Al. - 27th June 2017 at 17:57

Soviet-era Surface Action Groups were designed specifically to saturate and overwhelm US CBGs
(Which obviously led to tail-wagging-dog as US CBGs were then improved to deal with saturation attacks from Soviet-era SAGs and so on and so on)

No disrespect to 80s era JMSDF but they simply did not have the air defence in depth to deal with this opposition. Neither were they ever designed to have the kind of ASuW systems to engage their foe*

That JMSDF composition was to prosecute Soviet submarines. And they would have done so very professionally.

But against that opposition the JMSDF would have disengaged and come up with a Plan B.

*I forget the number but it’s big (at least two zeros at the end) of Harpoons which planners reckoned would be needed to sink a Kiev or a Kirov. I reckon that JMSDF go em-con use the two dog-leg capability of even early model Harpoons to engage the nearest unit from multiple directions and whilst it is busy they make like John Wayne and the shepherd

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By: nastle - 27th June 2017 at 02:00

Thanks maybe they would fare a little better against the shaddocks since ive read that the kyndas cannot fire them aa a-salvo of 8 but usually of 2 at a time
Is that true ?

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By: ijozic - 26th June 2017 at 10:58

Sea Sparrow requires target illumination and IIRC there were usually only two illuminator radars installed per ship, though there’s still Phalanx as some backup.

I wouldn’t expect these two systems to fare pretty well against a P-500 salvo, but that’s just a guess. The US does test various missile drones intended to simulate various Soviet missiles against test vessels, but the results are obviously classified.

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By: nastle - 26th June 2017 at 09:06

Please feel free to correct my assessments
If a destroyer with 1 sea sparrow and is attacked by 4-5 supersonic missiles at the same time ( like P-500) can it take out all 4 of them ? or will it overwhelm its defences given its short range

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By: TR1 - 16th June 2017 at 20:14

Sea Sparrow is a good anti missile defense now?

Both those Japanese classes had 1 Sea Sparrow launcher, which is pretty anemic as far as missile defense goes even in the 1980s. The 76mm Oto and a couple of Phalanxes isn’t bad for close up defense.

Asagiri (if Wiki is correct) were only commissioned at the very tail end of the Cold War, not operational for most of the 80s.

IIRC the Japanese were mostly antisubmarine tailored (even though ASROC was crude), not so much for surface engagements.

The “Kyndas” were fitted with 4 Ak-630s in the 80s, so if anything they had a better CIWS armament than any Japanese ships of the period, though their SAM armament was ancient and probably functionally useless vs AShMs.

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By: Scar - 13th June 2017 at 07:00

You can buy C:MANO and find out.

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By: nastle - 10th June 2017 at 17:18

Stranger things have happened
Assuming it does
What is your best guess

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By: paralay - 10th June 2017 at 07:19

Japan has the Self-Defense Forces. The USSR is a defensive doctrine. Therefore, the probability of a conflict is zero

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