Spitfire Colour Question

Gentlemen.

Don’t forget that they are or were two types of black and white negative films, orthochromatic and later on panchromatic.

With the former one, the yellow circle around the fuselage roundel looks black.

Interpretation of colour hues based on the examination of B & W prints is a dangerous exercice.

Good example of a B-scheme Spitfire, IMHO!

Possible yes – but I would say you were closer to the truth earlier and it is the ‘mixed’ grey looking darker, but perhaps more so if thinly applied over Dark Earth.

I share your theory that an airman would probably take the shortest route he could get away with. Not knocking him but there was a war on!

Originally posted by Mark V
Strictly speaking they were ‘mirror image’ schemes and known as A and B type. This is not the same as the issue we are talking about here but it is an interesting aside. Hawkers stuck with this until Spring 1941 when it was recognised as a drain on resources and discontinued the practice.

Oh, I see. Well, it was exactly the same with Spitfires from Supermarine/CBAF. But, as you said, nothing directly to do with reversed (transposed) colours.
However, one link with our subject has just come to my mind. In case of a Mk I or II originally finished in ‘B’ scheme it would be necessary to give it a completely new paint job to achieve the grey-and-green ‘A’ scheme that was the only one in use from late 1941 on. But with a similar aeroplane originally finished in ‘A’ scheme it was sufficient to repaint only the Dark Earth areas. Now, if a lazy aircraftman applied just one coat of Ocean Grey proper over Dark Earth, could the old colour show through, resulting in a different, darker hue?

Hi Voytech,

Strictly speaking they were ‘mirror image’ schemes and known as A and B type. This is not the same as the issue we are talking about here but it is an interesting aside. Hawkers stuck with this until Spring 1941 when it was recognised as a drain on resources and discontinued the practice. There are some colour profile artworks showing this in the Scale Aircraft Modelling book and reference to it in Camouflage & Markings. I could post a page here if it does not infringe their copyright.

Are we therefore looking at the aircraft in the foreground in the conventional scheme and the aircraft in the background having been painted using ‘mixed’ grey which, as your illustrations show, looks tonally darker than green (whereas Ocean Grey looks lighter)?

Originally posted by Mark V
Hold on! I am certain about reversed colours on Hurricanes, not Spitfires. The reversed Hurricane schemes are very well documented.

I admit I know nothing about Hurricane scheme variations. Would you mind telling when exactly were the reversed ones used and what sort of documents confirm them?

Originally posted by VoyTech
MarkV,
Do you mean colour photos? If you only refer to black and white ones, I suggest a lot of caution before you state you are certain about the ‘reverse colour’ scheme. I

Hold on! I am certain about reversed colours on Hurricanes, not Spitfires. I used the phrase “not normally on Spitfires”. If I had said “never on Spitfires” someone would come up with an example to prove me wrong!

The reversed Hurricane schemes are very well documented.

And yes I agree, the desert scheme on the Spitfire is an example of scheme reversal.

ZD-F in colour.

Voy Tech.

Wow.

I will imagine for a moment that is BL614. 🙂

Mark

Originally posted by Mark V
To my eye the colours look reversed on these aircraft (this was something done on Hurricanes certainly but not normally on Spitfires).
There have been cases of reverse camouflage on Spitfires as I recall but I do not have a photo to hand.

MarkV,
Do you mean colour photos? If you only refer to black and white ones, I suggest a lot of caution before you state you are certain about the ‘reverse colour’ scheme. I think this was done with the Desert Scheme, but I have never seen any credible proof of reverse colours on Day Fighter scheme Spitfires. Those quoted as such tend to be aircraft repainted with Mixed Grey (substituted for Ocean Grey) and can reasonably be explained with the grey being darker than Dark Green, rather than reversed colours.

And here is what the picture looks like when you reduce it to monochrome with a standard feature of image processing software. Compare the relative grey shades.

Originally posted by Mark12
Mark V,

Try cutting and pasting an equivalent section of camouflage. I believe we have similar greens with higher tonal value (than the green) grey in one case and lower tonal value grey in the other.

Mark12.

Mark V (and others),

Let me illustrate graphically what Mark12 was trying to explain.
This is my favourite Spitfire V shot. AD233, an early Mk V had left the factory in Temperate Land (brown and green), then was repainted at an MU with ‘Mixed Grey’ much darker than the regulation Ocean Grey. Stbd wing tip, ailerons, and top engine cowling were replaced in service, so all these items have more or less regulation Ocean Grey hue.

Mark V,

Try cutting and pasting an equivalent section of camouflage. I believe we have similar greens with higher tonal value (than the green) grey in one case and lower tonal value grey in the other.

Interesting.

Mark12.

Re: Colour reversal?

Originally posted by Mark12
Mark V,

I see where your are coming from but in the B/W shot I posted, the camou directly below and to the rear of the canopy have almost identical RGB values on both aircraft, yet to look at them you would not think that so.

Mark12

Rather than comparing tonal values between the two aircraft I was simply comparing the tonal values (by eye) on each aircraft seperatley. The darker tone areas on one aircarft (Dark Green) are in similar positions to the lighter toned (Ocean Grey) areas on the other – leading me to conclude that the colours are reversed.

Eddie,

Can you prove that it would be a uniform colour? I’ve made my wild guess, so it’s your responsibility to disprove it

Don’t start, or I’ll have a headache at you! 😉

Do you think the pilots realised what a difficult job they were doing formating in tow such ill matched a/c?

Cheers

Colour reversal?

Mark V,

I see where your are coming from but in the B/W shot I posted, the camou directly below and to the rear of the canopy have almost identical RGB values on both aircraft, yet to look at them you would not think that so.

Mark12

To my eye the colours look reversed on these aircraft (this was something done on Hurricanes certainly but not normally on Spitfires). I also note that the cowling panels around the spinner are very worn on the aircraft in the foreground but look fresh on the one in the background. There have been cases of reverse camouflage on Spitfires as I recall but I do not have a photo to hand. Perhaps the rear Spitfire was re-painted with the colours reversed?

James – I realise that (hence my comment about the weathering). To me it seems more like a uniform colour than weathering… But I accept that it could well be a uniform distribution of oil, through a bit of rubbing with rags etc.

Can you prove that it would be a uniform colour? I’ve made my wild guess, so it’s your responsibility to disprove it ;):D

Eddie,
In the book Spitfire V from MMP (www.mmp.biz) the author points out that colour around the cowling area would be affected by the prop and engine oil, compared to the rest of the airframe.
Cheers

Also, as you no doubt know, different colours have different resistances to fading. Perhaps the pigments in the green were more resistant than the ones in the grey?

Or perhaps (and this is probably the best answer) – perhaps they were painted with different batches of paint, and the paint manufacturers got the shades wrong.

I’m away from my books at the moment, but I seem to recall that at some stage the camouflage colours were reversed on alternate aircraft?

Anyway – with that hypothesis, using the “colour to target”/retouch tool in Paint Shop Pro, I amateurishly coloured the picture to that hypothesis…

No doubt I’m completely off the mark, though!