Spitfire Incident – 1941

Antoni

Fascinating stuff!

Gillman32

Yes, I see what you mean. I couldn’t figure out where at Biggin Hill this was taken, but I think you are probably correct.

I reckon this could be Biggin Hill. The farm in the background is still there with some of the original bulidings. Spent alot of time at Biggin and if you were to stand where the Spitfire is today you would have a great view of london and its tall landmarks.

Not sure about the poor Spitfire though, although the aerial mast is pointing forward and as already spotted it seems to have swung around the chocks.

🙂

The aircraft was later damaged in a ground incident with 315 Sqn in 1942 but this is not that incident – unless the 92 Squadron markings had not yet been deleted, which seems unlikely!

It was coded PK*Y and the damage does not match that shown in your photograph.

According to Gifts of War –

On 7th august Sgt G.P.Hickman was injured when he crash-landed R7161 near Deal, his aircraft being sent to Air Service Training on 29th August for repair and conversion to Mk Vb. Its movements thereafter are obscure.

As far as 315 squadron are concerned it is listed as PK*Y from Dec 1941 until Mar 1942.

Not relevant to your photo but part of the aircraft’s history so may still be of interest, Cywnar’s account of his and Gil’s collision.

I was taxiing to the maintenance hanger, uphill, quite fast, on the right hand side of the track. Suddenly, like a ghost, another fast taxiing Spitfire emerged from behind the hill. I pushed the brakes and turned. He did the same thing …. too late! Bang! We knocked quite hard… The Spitfires whirled slightly, like dancing, “dance macabre”. We switched off the engines, jumped out of our machines. Couldn’t you see? Yes, I saw you speed! And you? Yes but too late!

Chief mechanic, F/Sgt Korczowski: Gentlemen! It is only superficial, a little damage – we will hammer it out, fix it, no trace left. Wrong. Every, even unimportant incident, had to be listed in the daily squadron report.

The following day “B” Flight commander, handsome Zbyszek Czaykowski (favoured Josek and me), obviously well informed, not a word of reproach. The squadron CO, Janus, also not a word. Several days have passed, I say to Josek: The incident has been glossed over! Josek replied: Wrong dear Michal! The nosy, short Wing Co is certainly going to lecture us!

He was right. In a few days, FO Gil and F/Sgt Cwynar stood to attention in the office of the diminutive W/Cdr Rolski, A short “sermon” about fast taxiing. Josek and Michal? Still best friends.

I would suggest that the impacting aicraft was coming from the direction of the farm on the left horizon, hit the port wing of the Spitfire and severed it at mid aileron and deposited in the foreground of the image. The impact has probably spun the aircraft around in a clockwise direction, possibly more than 100 degrees, and jumping the chocks.

The impacting aircraft is likely to have had a wing whose height from the ground equates to that of the cockpit and rudder top of the Spitfire.

Mark

Because the Spitfire is in front of the chocks, and assuming that the chocks haven’t been moved (if they had been moved why wouldn’t they have been moved to ‘re-chock’ the aircraft), maybe we can also assume that the Spitfire was hit from behind and moved forward? The radio-mast is also pushed forward.

Has the tail-wheel been castored round by the impact; an impact from behind?

It looks to me as if the tip of the rudder and the spine of the Spitfire have been damaged at a fairly consistent, and high, height from the ground; I wonder what that height would be? Could it give an indication as to the height from the ground of the wing, if it was a wing, that did the damage?

What about the damaged wingtip; could the fact that the damaged skin still attached is below the wing be an indication of which way the propeller blades that did the damage, assuming it was a propeller, were turning at the time? Or is it just gravity?

Worth noting that under the fuselage (below the QJ codes) there is a pair of chocks on a wooden bar. These are behind and away from the main wheels. It looks as if the Spitfire must have ridden up and over these thus strengthening the case for this to have been a ground accident after being whacked by something else whilst parked.

AA719 was coded NX-S and named “PRIDE OF SHEPPY” whilst with 131 Sqn.

On the 19/8/42, P/O Williams claimed a 1/4 share in a Do 217 probably destroyed, whilst flying AA719.

Geoff

Just a thought, but could it have been hit by something other than another Spitfire; a twin-engined aircraft perhaps?

Look at the tip of the rudder and the radio-mast; couldn’t the (high) wing of a twin-engined aircraft have clipped those from behind while one of its propellers was chewing-up the wing?

I’m not sure how another Spitfire wing could damage the tip of the rudder and the radio-mast without leaving any traces or damage lower down.

DC Page

As I pointed out in an earlier post, the date stamp to the rear of this photo is 27 August 1941 – marked RAF Biggin Hill Photographic Section. I do not believe the photo has anything to do with the much later ground collision. My certain belief is that this was taken at Biggin, or somewhere in the Biggin sector.

The date stamp makes some sense when viewed in the context of our knowledge that R7161 went to AST for repairs on 29 August 1941.

I am starting to think that the supposed incident involving R7161 on 7 August 1941 when it made a forced landing at Deal with its pilot injured may not be correct.

I would also add that the tailwheel has not “departed”. It has merely castored away from the camera.

If no other ground structures were involved, I can see where a Spitfire overtaking this aircraft from the rear would account for the damage seen in this picture. For example if AB247 overtook R7161 from the port rear quarter, its starboard wing could ride up over the tail of R7161 and then push the radio mast forward as we see here. Also the propellor of AB247 would then be in position to impact the port wing of R7161 from behind.

I believe that Spitfire R7161 was coded QJ-J in April of 1941. By August of 1941 Spitfire W3312 was carrying the code QJ-J, so that possibly helps date the accident photo showing R7161 as being post August 1941, which Mark12’s post above indicates regarding the incident at Northolt with AB247 on 13 March 1942. If this picture is of the collision with AB247, there are other photos of the event in the book “315 Squadron” by Mushroom Model Publications, ISBN #8389450003.

Is it possible that this is at Northolt? Also, when was the change from “QJ-J” to “QJ-V”? And take a look at the debris wrapped around what’s left of the tailwheel strut. It looks like the aircraft has rolled through it with forward momentum. Hard to imagine how that debris would still be like that if the aircraft had been upside down and then been righted. The nose and prop show no signs of that kind of incident. There is damage to the underside of the rudder as well, probably from the impact and departure of the tailwheel. The wreckage in the lower right corner of the picture sure looks to be parts of the missing port wing structure.

This is the results of collision with AB247 described above isn’t it?

AA719 RF-A

303.Sqn 06/10/1941 – Force Landed 06/11/1941 – cat.B

AA719

303.Sqn, flown by P/O Damm 9.10.41; Sgt Popek 9.10.41;

FLd cat.B ì 6.11.41, Sgt Adam DAMM ok;

P+P (VASM), fuel system mods 10.42;

131.Sqn, Rodeo, AirCollision with EN889 in cloud south of ì
Shoreham when returning, into sea 11.11.42 (noon), P/O EAJ ì
WILLIAMS killed – or: P/O BWM SHEIDHAUER rescued by ASR Walrus ?

=> AccCard = AA719< Vb 303 Sqn Biggin Hill 1510 hrs. Cat C. Engine failed due to mishandling during curcuit of drome. Landed with wind overshot and hit tractor. 6.11.41 P/O A Damm 1547. (Polish).

Mark

Mark

I am pretty sure the upturned 303 Sqn Spit (I sent you an image) may well be related – but waiting on Wojtek to come back on that incident.

The background is similar and it seems to be just the other side of the peri track you can see in the picture above. It has taken a hefty clout to the leading edge of the port wing and something has partly folded and damaged the port leg – though that could have been as it turned over.

PS – now know that the 303 Squadron Spitfire incident is unrelated. Back to the drawing board…..!!

That does look like a taxi accident. A wing scraping over the fuselage, taking out the windscreen, canopy and the top of the ruder..but missing the propeller.

Mark

Mark

Unfortunately, no clue here to the incident in question but the AM 78 being missing for ‘Mombassa’ may well have held the vital clue. However, we have a date stamp on the rear of the original photo: 27 August 1941. That date seems possibly inconsistent with its forced-landing near Deal on 7 August.

However, a shot of an upside down Spitfire of 303 Sqn (RF-A) in the same package that seems to have hit something may well be related to R7161’s mishap, I feel.

AB247 13 March 1942 taxi collision with R7161 at Northolt

315.Sqn, flown by Plt Cwynar 10.2.42-1.4.43;

AccC AB247< Vb 315 Sqn Northolt 1620 hrs. Cat A. Operation ì
over enemy territory, Taxying from dispersal, R7161 hit AB247 ì
13.3.42, F/O J. Gil P76765;

Also

R7161 “MOMBASA” (Mov.Card missing!)

92.Sqn, Escort, crashed in FLd near Deal 7.8.41 (pm), Sgt GP ì
HICKMAN injured;

315.Sqn, flown by F/O Ignacy Olszewski 11.41-2.42;

AccC R7161< Vb 315 Sqn Northolt 1620 hrs. Cat B. Operation ì
over enemy territory; Taxying from dispersal for take-off, hit ì
AB247 on 13.3.42, Sgt Michael Cwynar ok, P782851;

VASM, fuel system mods, wing stiff. 3.43;

308.Sqn, Ramrod FTR ops France, SdE in aircombat with Fw190 in ì
Bernay-Le Havre area 16.8.43 (am), F/O Olgierd ILINSKI killed

Note:

No.308 Sqn lost 16.8.43 = R7161, W3404 & AB803; dam = BM137 !

Mark

CD

I pretty much agree with your theory. Something else has whacked this aircraft whilst stationary. There seem to be no witness marks on the ground that would probably have been caused by R7161 if it had come to rest following on from whatever mishap had resulted in that damage.

The wingtip damage is interesting; torn metal, fragments scattered about, yet the aircraft is on its wheels normally with no obvious propeller damage. There is obviously damage to the canopy, radio-mast and tip of the rudder. There is also damage to the tail-wheel?

The lack of damage to the undercarriage and propeller don’t suggest a landing or take-off accident to me nor do I think the weather could damage the wingtip like that, even if the aircraft was blown-over.

My guess, and it is a guess, is that another aircraft taxied into it and the wingtip damage was done by the propeller of the other aircraft.

Quite possibly. However, it would look to be more than a “repair on unit” case.

Nothing has popped up (yet!) in my search for the details.

Looks like it has been righted again after ending up on its back somehow. If not an accident, could be weather related (blown over?).