Spitfire Mk2A conversion to MkVB.How long did it take?

On the opening page he has one of them which he has captioned:-
A pink Spitfire PRVII, probably P7505….
He is usually correct. 🙂

But not in this case, I am sad to say… (“Good Mourning”?) You can see clearly the early type (‘A’ style) roundel in the photo, while P7505 was not converted for PR duties until 1943, apparently. Sometimes it is the most difficult to see the most obvious things.
I’ll talk to the publisher, and hopefully they’ll have an erratum on this one in the part II they are planning. Especially as, apparently, the man in the cockpit is no longer anonymous, so his log book might provide a clue as to the real serial.

Flying High, despite the miscaption, the book might answer many of your questions.
I am experiencing problems with my PM inbox (something to do with my age?…). If you want to contact me off line, PM Mark(s) or JDK to tell you how to do it.

I am led to understand in textbooks that the PRX111 type was selected for low level work. Was it not the case that Pink PR Spitfires were designed for high level operations?

[EDIT] Ah, I see you have answered your own question already. I can put the book away now, seeing as you have it! 😀

Spitfire PRX111 documented record

Dusting down the old books, have managed to come up with the following details –
PRX111 was an improvement on the PR1G type, with the same camera fittings, but was powered by the special low rated altitude Merlin 32 engine, and fitted with 4 .303 browning guns. Price says 26 Spits were converted. Here, by the way he has calculated the figures, it seems to be 18 conversions from the Mk11 and MkV and 8 from the PR type G.
The planes saw service with Squadrons 4, 400,541 and 542. They were used for low level reconaissance in an effort to record the French beaches during preparations for the Normandy invasion. Full throttle with the Merlin 32 was achieved at 5400ft.
The PR type G (with its very pale shade of pink covering) was expected to photograph it’s targets from immediately under cloud cover base wherever that happened to be, but there are reports of problems for once out of low cloud cover the pink colour became so visible over land and sea that the planes stuck out like a sore thumb.

…P7505 A Supermarine Spitfire Mk 11A

… major conversion into a PRX111 Photo Reconnaissance Spitfire…

Then it was taken to Philip Powis at…

Fascinating stuff – I can’t help with the content, but a couple of minor straightenings – I think it’s Philips & Powis Aircraft. Note spelling of Philips and it’s two names, not a Mr Powis called Phillip!

The original company was founded by Charles Powis and Jack Phillips as Philips and Powis Aircraft at Woodley airfield in Reading, Berkshire, after meeting Fred Miles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_Aircraft.

However a ‘Mark two Spitfire’ should be Mk.II and a Mk.11 would read as a ‘Mark eleven’. There no such thing as a PRX111, Roman numerals by definition not including a ‘1’, and that should be a ‘I’; making PR.XIII or photo reconnaissance thirteen. While this is nitpicky (and I’m in no position to throw stones on this kind of transcription error!) it’s important to avoid Arabic ones appearing in Roman numerals because of the potential confusion between two and eleven, and causing headaches when trying to work out what mark Spitfire we have here! 😉

HTH.

Hi VoyTech – your PM inbox is full! 🙂

Ooh sorry! The book says the conversions were done at Castle Bromwich, Supermarine and Westlands.

Sadly Mr.Price doesn’t go into too much detail about the work involved with the wings, apart from saying the VB had 60 rounds per cannon while the VC – which he says was the first with the universal wing – had the capacity for 120 cannon shells per gun.

PaulR,

Does Alfred Price say where the upgrades from I & II to V were undertaken?

In my view it would be too disruptive to under take this at the Castle Bromwich production facility, but well within the scope of the extensive Civilian Repair Organisation of which Air Service Training Ltd was an element.

The conversion of an airworthy Mk IIA to a MKVB does not make sense. The work to tear apart the wing structure, particularly the leading edge to mount the cannon castings is not viable.

To take a battle or accident damaged Mk IIA and in the process using and combining old stock/recovered items to make a Mk VB is very plausible.

Mark

Getting back for a moment to the conversions of Mark I and II airframes to V status, the book referenced above by me says that 94 Mark VAs (eight machine guns) were built before production was devoted exclusively to VBs (four mgs, two cannon). The conversion of the airframes consisted mainly of strengthening the engine mountings for the Merlin 45 and fitting it with a larger diameter oil cooler with a circular rather than semi-circular intake. It also says the fitting of the slipper tank was a later modification because with the end of the Battle of Britain the air force went over to an offensive rather than purely defensive campaign and thus the need for an increased operating range was evident.

“It is I, LeClerc”. 🙂

The Pink Spitfire – P7505?

Hi Voytech, could you pass this onto Wojtek for me please –
ref – the recorded history of P7505 as outlined above.
In relation to Mark’s picture of the Pink Spitfire as seen in your book, how did he arrive at the possibility that this was a picture of P7505, and it’s PRV11 connection ? This is all fascinating and new material for me. This along with the notification of a second accident for P7505 on August 30th August, a category B damage this time, this fits well with my information that on September 2nd, a couple of days later P7505 was sent off to be converted to a Mk VB. But, for me, the official records state clearly P7505 was converted from a MkV to a PRX111, and as stated above I am led to understand in textbooks that the PRX111 type was selected for low level work. Was it not the case that Pink PR Spitfires were designed for high level operations? This is my dilemma, it’s just a matter of fitting the pieces of information together, so if you could please let me know what historical sources you have used that I could refer to, to clarify the above, and make things clearer for me I would be very grateful for your input.

A.S.T. and ‘air service training’

Hi Philip,
thanks for the input. I see what you mean, but these are not my documented words, and can only take them at face value. However as stated above am gathering in squadron details, and so far, for example, 91 and 54 squadrons appear to have been doing just that, quote – ‘being used for air service training’ prior to getting ready for going into action, as outlined in the timeline above. Anyway will bear all this in mind, and things will begin to make more sense when more info comes in as to what each squadron was involved with on a daily basis, in relation to the known about P7505.

For me,there will always be more to learn, appreciate and understand.

would it be possible to get in touch with Wojtek and see how he arrived at this possibility? Is he a member of this forum?

If you PM VoyTech he will put you in touch with him directly 🙂

After repairs were made it was given to 91 Squadron for Air Service Training. On the 14th February 1941 118 Squadron took the plane over with the serial number NK – T .

On the 4th of August 1941 P7505 was again used for Air Service Training, until the 2nd of September 1941 when the plane was converted to a Mk VB and fitted with a Merlin 45 engine. It was then delivered back to 54 Squadron until 5th January 1942?

I think you are misinterpreting ‘Air Service Training’ here. Air Service Training (AST) at Hamble and other locations were a company that formed part of the Civilian Repair Organisation, what this is actually saying is that the aircraft went to AST for the repairs to the Cat 2 damage and later for conversion to Mk.Vb.

Pink Spitfire P7505 ?

There Tiz done.
Thanks for the picture Mark. Very interesting, but would it be possible to get in touch with Wojtek and see how he arrived at this possibility? Is he a member of this forum? Will have to get hold of his book.
My latest info states that the 18 Spitfire PRX111 conversions were designed for low level duties, often used over the sea.
As always any help is really appreciated.

Flying High

Any chance we could call this Spitfire a Mk.II?

In his splendid new little book on the Merlin PR Spitfires Wojtek Matusiak used a number of images from my collection.

On the opening page he has one of them which he has captioned:-

A pink Spitfire PRVII, probably P7505….

He is usually correct. 🙂

Mark

The recorded history of P7505

Thanks for all you comments. I thought it would be helpful if this documented museum history of P7505 is disclosed. I am currently adding to the details below with the squadron records dates and locations. But have not yet had any reason to disbelieve what is documented below. The one recorded accident, with cat 2 damage, occured on October 21st 1940 with 66 Squadron.
Voytech, I have not yet found any records of an accident involving P7505 on the 30th August 1941, this is very interesting, please could you give me more details together with your sources. Any help to build a bigger picture of this plane’s history would be much appreciated, and if anyone knows of any squadron photos, or other recorded details, that might include P7505, please post them here or contact me.
Many thanks to you all.
…………………………………………………………………………………………
P7505 A Supermarine Spitfire Mk 11A was manufactured in the Castle Bromwich factory in the Midlands and left the Maintenance Unit on the 10th October 1940, just at that critical time during the final stage of the battle of Britain P7505 was delivered to 66 Squadron. On the 21st October 1940 it received Category 2 damage due to enemy action. After repairs were made it was given to 91 Squadron for Air Service Training. On the 14th February 1941 118 Squadron took the plane over with the serial number NK – T .
On the 6th May 1941 403 Squadron took possession of the plane. On the 31st July 1941
54 Squadron took the plane over. On the 4th of August 1941 P7505 was again used for Air Service Training, until the 2nd of September 1941 when the plane was converted to a Mk VB and fitted with a Merlin 45 engine. It was then delivered back to 54 Squadron until 5th January 1942?
133 Squadron had the plane up to the 10th March 1942. Then 601 Squadron took it over until the 10th of April 1942. Afterwards 164 Squadron used P7505 until the 20th May 1942.
602 Squadron had the Spitfire until the 10th September 1942.
Then it was taken to Philip Powis at South Marston for a fuel system modification. Afterwards the plane was then transferred to Heston Aircraft ltd for a major conversion into a PRX111 Photo Reconnaissance Spitfire, and fitted with the Merlin 32 engine.
Approximately eleven months later P7505 was then delivered to 4 Squadron on the 30th December 1943 where apparently it remained until being struck off charge on the 28th March 1945.
………………………………………………………………………………………..

How interesting, I’ve just finished reading this

and found it fascinating. Picked it up in a second hand shop (but this was a return so is in pristine condition) for €10 (£6-ish?), bargain. Then I try to remember how the IIA’s were converted to VA and Bs and nothing comes to mind! Bah!

…Or indeed a MkIb – were these converted to Vb status? (I think Geoffrey Wellum suggests as much but pilot’s memories aren’t always the best guide to this sort of thing)

What about a Mk.Va?

Apparently, P7505 was converted from Mk II to Mk V by Air Service Training Hamble, following an accident 30 August 1941 in which it suffered cat. B damage. Depending on the scope of actual damage it may have been rebuilt as a Mk VB if the original wings have been damaged to such extent that they had to be replaced.