Spitfire Question

So, hopefully, you have some proof that this Spitfire, the 251st produced, was actually captured…?
It was given the B Condition marking N.21 for test flying, then 01, and the last picture has it coded FW8. Although reported as being burnt at Orleans to prevent it falling into German hands it does appear to have survived for a while in a delapidated state. There has (to my knowledge) never been any proof that the Germans took it on.

Flood

Aha, thats what it states in “The History” but if you read elsewhere…

The 251st production aircraft, first flown 25/06/1939 with B class Reg No. N-21 direct from makers to France – arrived French AF and TOC as F.01 on 18/07/1939; At Orleans (marked “FWB”), burnt 06/1940; Remains captured by Germans 06/1940

Hope this helps 😀

There was at least one 😉

Spitfire F.01 was a Mk.I sent to France for trials and was subsequently captured by the Germans.

This was the only Spitfire NOT to have an RAF serial allocated to it (as far as I’m aware anyway)

I know this is not really what you asked, but…

So, hopefully, you have some proof that this Spitfire, the 251st produced, was actually captured…?
It was given the B Condition marking N.21 for test flying, then 01, and the last picture has it coded FW8. Although reported as being burnt at Orleans to prevent it falling into German hands it does appear to have survived for a while in a delapidated state. There has (to my knowledge) never been any proof that the Germans took it on.

Flood

Why did they use 2 blade props anyway?

I realise this is a bit off-thread, but, by the mid 30’s, the advantages of 3 or even four-bladed props would have been recognised, so why did the early Spits and Hurris only have two bladers? I understand that variable pitch was still a reasonably new and untried development in 1936, but the manufacturers must have known that a 2 bladed prop was going to limit the new aircrafts’ performance, so why fit them?

Regards

Wombat

[QUOTE=Col. Gibbon]

No Spitfire squadrons were based in France, though they did operate over France during the Dunkirk period. QUOTE]

Any ideas which Spitfire squadrons saw action over France?

Those based in 11 Group, largely.

92 Sqdn lost three aircraft against two Bf-109’s and two Bf-110’s downed on May 23.

74 certainly did.

[QUOTE=WebPilot]

No Spitfire squadrons were based in France, though they did operate over France during the Dunkirk period. QUOTE]

Any ideas which Spitfire squadrons saw action over France?

Hi Webpilot!
You mentioned the Battle of France. Any ideas if any Spitfire Mk1’s ever made it to France, and which sqadrons of Hurricanes were in service at the start of WWII? I know 1 Squadron was, as I’ve seen a TV program about them, but what other squadrons were involved? and what were they equiped with?

Any ideas how much of an improvement there was in proformance, between the 2 and 3 bladed props on the Hurricane and Spitfire?

Sorry for so many questions. 🙂

Hi Col Gibbon.

I’d have to look at my references at home to be sure which squadrons were Hurricane equipped at the oubreak of war – 19 RAF squadrons were fully equipped with Hurricanes in September 1939, of which Nos 1, 73, 85 and 87 Squadrons were sent to France. No Spitfire squadrons were based in France, though they did operate over France during the Dunkirk period. There were a few Spits in France as others have mentioned – the one sent for evaluation by the Armee d l’air and a few PR machines.

I’d have to look up the difference the 3 blade prop made. I think it’s less an issue of more power however, but better control of the power available. The 2 blader was a compromise between the pitch needed for take off and high speed flight which the later 2 pitch unit went some way to address and the constant speed unit finally sorted out.

Funny that, I was just reading about that one in “Spitfire At War 3” 😉

Any ideas if any Spitfire Mk1’s ever made it to France

There was at least one 😉

Spitfire F.01 was a Mk.I sent to France for trials and was subsequently captured by the Germans.

This was the only Spitfire NOT to have an RAF serial allocated to it (as far as I’m aware anyway)

I know this is not really what you asked, but…

I think one or two might have been in France doing recce stuff, but without the books I can’t be certain.

There was an increase of at least a couple of mph with the new props!!

Hi Webpilot!

Thanks for the reply, but now you have started me wondering about another question.

You mentioned the Battle of France. Any ideas if any Spitfire Mk1’s ever made it to France, and which sqadrons of Hurricanes were in service at the start of WWII? I know 1 Squadron was, as I’ve seen a TV program about them, but what other squadrons were involved? and what were they equiped with?

Any ideas how much of an improvement there was in proformance, between the 2 and 3 bladed props on the Hurricane and Spitfire?

Sorry for so many questions. 🙂

The answer for the Spit pretty much also applies to the Hurricane, although being earlier into service more were built with the Watts airscrew – 300 of the initial 600. Again, most of these were retrofitted but there were 2 bladed aircraft in action during the Battle of France, many of which of course didn’t make it back to the UK.

So again, hard to be certain, however there is a chance that some aircraft were still flying with the 2 bladed airscrew in July 1940, but it can’t have been many.

As to yellow tips – this seems to have come in (in RAF use, at least) during about 1938. Propeller blades seem to have been painted black about the time of Munich when the RAF “toned down”, previously blades were polished or left in the natural wood which presumably was more visible.

Don’t think any Hurricanes did, either.

Not sure about the prop question, though!

Hi guys!

Thanks for the answers. 🙂

Another question on Brithish planes in general.

How many Hurricanes flew in the Battle of Britain with two bladed props?

When did it become standard pratice to paint yellow tips on prop blades?

Sorry this is not a quiz! 😀

It will probably be hard to determine that there were definitely no Spits flying with the Watts two blader in Summer 1940, but I think it’s unlikely.

Only the first 78 aircraft had the fixed pitch two blade airscrew, after that they were fitted with a two pitch three blade unit and remaining early machines were retrofitted. Then during the early part of 1940 there was a rush job to fit constant speed units to all aircraft.

Don’t think so. They were all fitted with 3-blades from early on.

Here we are, from the horses mouth so to speak. My 83 year old ex-auxiliary groundcrew friend (Spit squadron from 1938 – 40, then all over the place) says the following:

“Spitfires never ever had inertia starters, it was either a trolley ack –not available in France– or put the cranked handle in and start winding , praying that the pilot knew what he was doing .”

(The France bit again being a reference I made to the Poilu’s etc”

Finally I´m back on line, it was not very easy for sombody as computer challenged as I´m:D

Anyway, we seem to be getting somewhere with this Spitfire starting thing. Now we know that the early Merlins had manual start option, via a starting handle. But how about the Merlin 45´s as installed in the Mk.V. I know it was basically the same engine, but in your Merlin books, is there any mention of such a system on the 45’s?

Regards,
Galdri

It becomes increasingly clear that I should stop talking from memory.
It´s the Griffon that has the cartridge starter engaging the reduction gearing.
The drives on the Griffon, compared to the Merlin, were shifted from the rear of the engine to the front in order to reduce torsional vibration transferred from the crankshaft.

I have on the desk in front of me “ROLLS-ROYCE PISTON AERO ENGINES – a designer remembers” in the RRHT series.

Figures #61 and #62 show the Merlin II starter system gear drive.
The text says – electric motor input via shaft N – hand starter drive via shaft R including the inclined roller freewheel.
I don´t know exactly what is meant by the inclined roller freewheel but I think that when the engine starts and turns the drive quicker than the hand crank it disengages.
There´s no mention of a flywheel.

I know it´s not the specific engine in question but anyway ……
Figure #67 shows the Merlin XX-series geartrain.
The electric motor is vertically mounted and it engages at the rear of the engine between the crankshaft and the supercharger drive.
There´s a hand starter shaft on the startboard side of the engine engaging the same geartrain.
There´s no flywheel.

HTH,
Christer