Whilst looking for bits and info on the Spitfire I came across this:-
http://www.spitfiresociety.demon.co.uk/flying.htm
[B]Dissimilar Combat Exercises
In 1963 it was thought that the English Electric Lightning might have to be used against P-51 Mustangs in Indonesia, and the Mk XIX PM631 of the BBMF was diverted to Central Fighter Establishment Binbrook to provide an opponent similar to the Mustangs in a dissimilar combat exercise. During this exercise it developed engine troubles, and PS853, which while being a Gate Guardian at CFE Binbrook had also been maintained in flying condition on the orders of the Station CO, took over the role.
Has anyone any information on the story that in the simulator, a Spitfire armed with Sidewinders has a fair chance against a Tornado?[/B]
I’d not heard the story of the Spitfire v Lightning (and I am not going to ask about that on the AFM forum, thank you very much!); wonder what the upshot was?
As for the Sidewinder/Spitfire combination… That sounds like on of those damnfool questions (AFM forum again?) that gets bandied around when too much not enough is occupying a drunken mind. Personally I would have thought the lack of a RADAR (although that didn’t stop the Hawk from carrying them) and the relatively flimsy wing would have put paid to this in reality – but then anything can happen in flight sims, so…
Flood.
By: Mark V - 10th November 2003 at 15:35
From ’40 Years on – A Spitfire Flies Again’ by Lettice Curtis:
“On the journey out (to France) I met a French Air Force Jaguar near St Dizier and after I had upset him by turning well inside him twice, diasappeared up in to the overcast with a large application of reheat”.
Quote from pilot of PL983, Dave Moore on his ferry flight to France for new owner Roland Fraissinet.
By: DazDaMan - 10th November 2003 at 09:22
There could be a good story in here – Spitfires vs F-16s or something (a la Mark Hanna’s Mustang story) 😉
By: mike currill - 10th November 2003 at 09:11
I would think that once you have a fire position achieved you take the shot and get the hell out so how long you could hold the position for would not be a critical factor
By: Christer - 7th November 2003 at 16:04
Mike,
I wrote that from memory but below I qoute from the first edition of The Spitfire Story by Alfred Price:
Provided the Lightning did not drop its speed too much and let itself be drawn into a turning fight with its more agile opponent, a piston-engined fighter stood little chance in such an encounter. The most effective attack by the Lightning was in a high speed climb from below its opponent, where there was a good chance it could get into a missile-firing position without being seen.
It does not mention for how long …… 😉 ……
Christer
By: mike currill - 7th November 2003 at 13:55
Originally posted by Christer
I read somewhere that the best tactics for the Lightning would be to cruise at low altitudes and when an “oldie” was spotted, to make an almost vertical climb to attack. In this way the Ligtning would remain undetected, obscured by the wing of the “oldie”.
If the “oldie” spotted the Lightning and started manouevering, then the job would become much more difficult for the Lightning pilot.Christer
There’s a scary thought. The lightning was a thirsty bird anyway, I hate to think what loitering at low level would have done to its endurance
By: DazDaMan - 7th November 2003 at 12:36
Originally posted by Firebird
There’s a photo in one of the Lightning books taken during this time with the PRXIX and the Lightning flying at low level…the Lightning at a very high a.of.a…….
Might be the same pic that’s in Spitfire Story (Alfred Price) showing PS853 flying level and the Lightning pulling up after it.
If I have time before departing to Glasgow tonight, I’ll try to post up the report from “Spitfire – A Documentary History” which deals with, I think, either the Lightning or the Vampire vs. Spitfire/P-51 idea.
(On second thouhts, maybe this bit is also in Spitfire Story??)
By: Firebird - 7th November 2003 at 12:26
There’s a photo in one of the Lightning books taken during this time with the PRXIX and the Lightning flying at low level…the Lightning at a very high a.of.a…….
This also reminds me of an article, possibly in one of the old WWW journals, written by a guy who caught a back seat ride with Mark Hanna in one of OFMC’s fleet, on the way back from a Scandinavian airshow. Mark explained to him that on previous occasions they had been ‘bounced’ by curoius F-16’s, and if that happened on this flight, to hang on tight, as Mark saw it as ‘game on’…….:D
Once a fighter pilot, always a fighter pilot…..:D
By: Christer - 6th November 2003 at 17:30
I read somewhere that the best tactics for the Lightning would be to cruise at low altitudes and when an “oldie” was spotted, to make an almost vertical climb to attack. In this way the Ligtning would remain undetected, obscured by the wing of the “oldie”.
If the “oldie” spotted the Lightning and started manouevering, then the job would become much more difficult for the Lightning pilot.
Christer
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November 6, 2003 at 3:45 pm