Spitfire X4492

Ah! One of the record cards that were stolen in the 1970’s prior to the mass microfiche for the RAFMus 😡

I transcribed this card at AHB circa 1971 and have:-

43 Gp. D.A. 23 August 1941.

So not 43 Squadron, not 43 MU, but I suspect 43 Group of Maintenance Command. The D A may stand for Deposit Account – aircraft held by storage unit.

Mark

That makes sense Mark. No.222 moved to North Weald around 18th August 1941 and started to re-equip with the F.VB (e.g. AB910) so it would make sense for P8332 to be transferred to the Group Deposit Account prior to moving to AST for a well-deserved overhaul.

As I’m in the middle of the page layouts for the new edition of Spitfire Survivors right now it was good to see the comments on P8332 in this thread.

I have the same transcript of its record card – provided by A.J.Shortt and dated February 1986 – but I think there may be an error where it notes that P8332 was issued to No.43 Sqdn on 23rd August 1941.

No.43 was based at Drem in August 1941 and flying Hurricanes – not Spitfires.

Admittedly we published the 43 Sqdn posting in Spitfire Survivors (2nd Edn) but now I’m not so sure!

Also, if it was damaged and sent to AST at Hamble on 27 August that’s a long way from Drem!

My current thinking is that “43” may refer to 43 M.U. – which unit may well have collected it and transported it to Hamble for repair.

The probable reason for its selection for transfer to Canada would have been that it was often flown by P/O J.H.Burgess – a Canadian – whilst with No. 222 Sqdn.

Ah! One of the record cards that were stolen in the 1970’s prior to the mass microfiche for the RAFMus 😡

I transcribed this card at AHB circa 1971 and have:-

43 Gp. D.A. 23 August 1941.

So not 43 Squadron, not 43 MU, but I suspect 43 Group of Maintenance Command. The D A may stand for Deposit Account – aircraft held by storage unit.

Mark

P8332

As I’m in the middle of the page layouts for the new edition of Spitfire Survivors right now it was good to see the comments on P8332 in this thread.

I have the same transcript of its record card – provided by A.J.Shortt and dated February 1986 – but I think there may be an error where it notes that P8332 was issued to No.43 Sqdn on 23rd August 1941.

No.43 was based at Drem in August 1941 and flying Hurricanes – not Spitfires.

Admittedly we published the 43 Sqdn posting in Spitfire Survivors (2nd Edn) but now I’m not so sure!

Also, if it was damaged and sent to AST at Hamble on 27 August that’s a long way from Drem!

My current thinking is that “43” may refer to 43 M.U. – which unit may well have collected it and transported it to Hamble for repair.

The probable reason for its selection for transfer to Canada would have been that it was often flown by P/O J.H.Burgess – a Canadian – whilst with No. 222 Sqdn.

Without a doubt that is P8332. This is a bit of an old ball Spitfire as in all the research over or went it was allocated. I have pictures from the NAM in Ottawa that show here traveling all over southern Ontario, including a pic of it sitting at Toronto’s Old City Hall during a war bond drive. I quess it got pretty beat up over the years and may have been used for parts for all I know. Really not sure how this Spitfire (P8332) survived and the other Rockcliffe Spitfires didnt. R7143 went to Halifax and was scrapped but I have always wondered what happened to X4492 and X4555.

I’m wary of venturing an opinion on a topic where someone’s done such a phenomenal job of research; but my understanding is it was sent simply as a ‘thank you’ to Canada for the RCAF turning up for the Battle of Britain etc; additional to this, as a War Bonds fundraiser. The latter reason has, I think on occasion obscured the original reason. I recently did an article on four historic preserved Spitfires; P8332, in Canada, and perhaps a clue to your question the Spitfire Mk.IIa P7973 – sent to Australia, as it had significant RAAF combat history, paralleling the Canadian example. (I also discussed the IWM’s Mk.I R6915 and the Chicago Mk.I, to some degree similar entries into preservation).

From my notes:

On May 12th, 1944, in response to an RAAF request for ‘a Spitfire that had served in an Australian squadron’, Spitfire Mk.IIa P7973 was packed at RAF Sealand for dispatch to Australia.

I’m guessing, but perhaps this was the same scenario for P8332? I’m not aware of specific documentation proving (or disproving this) but it was my understanding of the case.

Incidentally, here’s a photo of the Spitfire in question. While all four examples (Chicago; IWM, London; AWM, Canberra and CWM, Ottawa) are up in the air, the least sucessfully displayed is unarguably the Canadian War Museum’s example. For me, it is a shockingly bad effort at display and should be used as a ‘how not to do it’ lesson for museum curators everywhere. It looks like it’s been stuffed in the rafters because they wanted to store it; a remarkably poor effort for a 21st century museum. 0/10, CWM.

Regards,

Based my RAF movements on the records – however with my exp. over the years these cannot always be trusted. Then again if the RAF converted the aircraft by simply changing the engine etc – why would they write this on the card.
R7143, X4555, and X4492 movement cards are a nightmare to read and there is handwritten revisions all over them. If you guys can make better sense of them drop me a line. Here is a scan of her movement card.

Believe me, many movement cards are a nightmare to read, these three are not that special in this.
Yes, at the top of the card you have:
IPR (‘Mark I PR’, which it was in the early PRU nomenclature, being a PR conversion of Mark I fighter; individual variants of these Mk I PR conversions were designated by letters, X4492 was a type F)
MK VI (‘Mark VI’, which it was – but not the Mk VI fighter! – when the initial letter designations were replaced by equivalent letters, when type C became PR.III, type D PR.IV and type F PR.VI, for example)
VA (‘Mark VA’, which it wasn’t because it did not have the ‘A’ wing with machine guns when it was fitted with the Merlin 45; this note seems to be crossed with a zigzag in the same colour as the ‘Mk VI’ beside, perhaps this was a correction applied in red?)
PRIV W TYPE (‘PR.IV’, which it wasn’t because type D/PR.IV had the ‘wet wing’ design which was never fitted to X4492; ‘W type’ referred to camera layout in th fuselage, this also seems to be crossed out)
VPR (‘Mark V PR’, which it was in the early PRU nomenclature the moment it was re-engined with Merlin 45, essentialy becoming a PR conversion of the Mark V rather than Mark I)
MARKPR7 (‘Mark PR.VII’, which it wasn’t because type G/PR.VII was armed and had armoured windscreen – see R7143 and X4555)
It was a ‘PR.I type F’ conversion of Mark I fighter in 1940, the ‘F’ identifying the variant which featured cameras in rear fuselage and two large fuel tanks in/under wings (you can see the tear-drop shaped fairing under the wing in the photo provided by Mark 12).
Then it was re-engined with Merlin 45 (Rolls-Royce 18.4.41), becoming ‘PR.V type F’.
Then, with the changed designation system it became PR.VI.

The entries in the Movement Card seem to be as follows:
14.11.40 PRU [delivered as PR.I type F]
18.4.41 Rolls-Royce [converted to PR.V type F by fitting Merlin 45]
29.4.41 1 PRU [delivered as PR.V type F]
15.11.41 8 MU [probably handed over from 1 PRU as the latter converted to PR.IVs as the time]
12.2.42 140 Sqn [by then probably re-designated PR.VI]
22.4.42 cat. B
20.6.42 ?
21.6.42 9 MU
no date 140 Sqn
27.7.42 12 MU
29.10.42 Stn Benson
5.12.42 47 MU
9.1.43 Manchester
16.1.43 ss “Manchester Progress” Canada
?.?.43 Arr. Canada

I am not sure where your other conversion dates came from but converting an early PR Mk I conversion (as delivered in 1940) into a PR.IV, then a Mk VA, then PR.VII, then PR.VI was simply not feasible in engineering terms. And there were no PR.IVs before late 1941 anyway.
Also, you mention a ‘Merlin XIV’. Was there ever such an engine? Not in Spitfires. This must be Merlin XLV, as Merlin 45 was often labelled at the time when Roman numerals still prevailed.

Based my RAF movements on the records – however with my exp. over the years these cannot always be trusted. Then again if the RAF converted the aircraft by simply changing the engine etc – why would they write this on the card.

R7143, X4555, and X4492 movement cards are a nightmare to read and there is handwritten revisions all over them. If you guys can make better sense of them drop me a line. Here is a scan of her movement card.

I remember speaking with this pilot and I may have not corrected my sheets, then again look for yourself and you can feel my frustration.

Lee

Phew! Relieved to see PR.IV lurking there. 🙂

Mark

P8332 – Movements in the UK and Cdn

This was passed on to me by AJ Short – former Curator to NAM, plus my research on other NEI Sponsored Spitfires:

AIRCRAFT OF THE NATIONAL AVIATION MUSEUM
TYPE: Supermarine Spitfire MK.IIB
MANUFACTURER:
Supermarine Division
Vickers-Armstrong Limited
Castle Bromwich, Birmingham, England
CONSTRUCTION NO.: CBAF 711
ENGINE: Rolls Royce (Packard) Merlin 29
REGISTRATION: P8332 (RAF)

DISPOSITION Display – Canadian War Museum

HISTORY.
Manufactured by CBAF June 27, 1940
Taken on charge by RAF 20 March 1941
Presentation aircraft – named SOEBANG (NEI)**
paid for by the State of Soebang, Netherland East Indies
No. 45 MU, RAF Kinross, Scotland April 29, 1941
222 Sqd, RAF, Convoy Patrols and sweeps over France May 21, 1941
43 Sqd, RAF August 23, 1941
Damaged, repaired by AST Ltd. Hamble, Hants August 27, 1941
8 MU, RAF, Little Rissington November 8, 1941
82 MU, RAF, Litchfield December 7, 1941
Transferred to RCAF April 1, 1942
Delivered to Liverpool Docks by No. 82 MU for shipment on the SS Manchester Port April 13, 1942
Arrived in Canada May 42
RCAF taken on strength #1 Training Command, Mountain View, Ontario.7 May 42
Flown at Mountain View and displayed at many locations in Canada
during World War II (eg – in front of Toronto City Hall 4 Nov 43,with Serials #A166 and 166B).
#2 Technical Training School, Camp Borden, Ontario 20 Nov 47
Displayed at Canadian National Exhibition, Toronto, Ontario Aug-Sep 59
Displayed at several RCAF Stations during late 1950s & early 1960s
RCAF Station Uplands, Ontario 5 Jul 62
RCAF Museum Collection 6 Dec 64
Repaired and finished as “SO-P” of #45 Squadron, RAF, at #6RD, Trenton,Ont. Jan-Dec 66
Used in Canadian Armed Forces Centennial Tattoo 1967
Displayed at National Museum of Science & Technology, Ottawa. ’68-May 86
Displayed at National Aviation Museum, Ottawa, Ont. Sep 86-Jun 87
Re-finished in authentic marking ZD-L of #222 Squadron, RAF, as flown by Pilot Officer J.H. Burgess in June 1941. work done in July 88
Loan to Canadian War Museum (for display to open 1990). 27 Oct 89
Moved to new CWH in 2006

Sep 88 A.J.S. <- former curator to the NAM

North East Indies Government sponsored Mk. IIs Spitfires

P8327 Java
P8329 Sumbawa
P8330 Batavia
P8331 Sumatra
n8332 Baron Soebang*
P8333 Banda
P8335 Semarang
P8336 Flores
P8338 Borneo
P8339 Madura
P8340 Balikpapan
P8341 Lumbok
P8342 Scram
P8343 Medan
P8349 Sucka Boemi
P8361 Krakatao
P8363 Banka
P8364 Surinam
P8365 Rotterdam
P8365 Palembang
P8367 Bali
P8368 Sibaya
P8369 Toba **
P8371 Palembang-Oloe**
P8375 Celebes
P8376 Bedoeln
P8377 Siwabong**
P8378 Sourabaya
P8384 Fei Yue
P8443 Molukken
P8444 Mes
P8516 Amboina
P8595 Middelberg
P8596 Riouw
P8597 Katwijk
P8602 Malang

* Sent to Canada/RCAF. April 4th, 1942.
** Flew with R.CA.F sqds while in the UK.
In April of 1941 a total of 36 Mk 11s and 17 Mk Vs were sponsored by the Government of the North East Indies. They were given the names of the major islands, states, towns, and cities that make up the NEI and 3 of them went on to fly in R.C.A.F. Squadrons while based in England.

Attached is a picture of P8332 in Gore Park, Hamilton
from The Hamilton Spectator
“Navigates “F for Freddie” over City Tomorrow – Squadron Leader Jack Watts DSO, DFC, and bar will be navigator on the Mosquito bomber “F for Freddie” which will “shoot up” Hamilton at 3:30pm tomorrow afternoon. The Mosquito will fly over part of Wentworth as well, in a flight arranged by the 8th Victory Loan Committee. In this photograph S/L Watts is shown pressing the firing button of the Spitfire (P8332) fighter plane in Gore Park at noon today. Assisting the local committee while on leave he addressed employees in many plants during the 4th loan drive.

X4492 – RAF Movement Card

Based my RAF movements on the records – however with my exp. over the years these cannot always be trusted. Then again if the RAF converted the aircraft by simply changing the engine etc – why would they write this on the card.

R7143, X4555, and X4492 movement cards are a nightmare to read and there is handwritten revisions all over them. If you guys can make better sense of them drop me a line. Here is a scan of her movement card.

I remember speaking with this pilot and I may have not corrected my sheets, then again look for yourself and you can feel my frustration.

Lee

walshlee and Mark,
To my knowledge X4492 was never a PR.III, PR.IV or Mk Va. It was never finished in light colors (particularly not in pink) or coded ‘DP’.
It was a PR type F aka PR.VI.
There is some info on it (although far less than walshlee has quoted) in that Merlin PR Spitfire book that Mark has once mentioned in a diffrent thread, including description of what a PR type F was and (IIRC) an account of a guy who flew X4492 in Canada.

X4492 & P8332 Spitfires in Canada

Dear Mark,

Thanks for posting the new pics. Without a doubt that is P8332. This is a bit of an old ball Spitfire as in all the research I did I could never find and RCAF papers that revealled why it was sent over or went it was allocated. I have pictures from the NAM in Ottawa that show here traveling all over southern Ontario, including a pic of it sitting at Toronto’s Old City Hall during a war bond drive. I quess it got pretty beat up over the years and may have been used for parts for all I know. Really not sure how this Spitfire (P8332) survived and the other Rockcliffe Spitfires didnt. R7143 went to Halifax and was scrapped but I have always wondered what happened to X4492 and X4555.

That shot you have posted of X4492 was taken in 1944 with S. African pilot Tong Gubbs at the controls. The small nose art at the front is the No. 13 Sqd insignia with a Gooney Bird wearing a camera around his neck. I have documented the history of P8332 and it was part of a number of Spits sponsored by the North East Indies Government. Her history is very vague from 1942 up until around 1950 when she ended up at Camp Borden where she was polished up a bit. Spitfire owner Don Campbell of Kapuskasing, Ontario had found some replacement parts for P8332 and then the CAM in Ottawa cleaned her up some more a number of nears ago.

I have some more pictures of the other Spitfires on my site (old and not updated lately). Here is the list of serials for the other RCAF Spitfires on memory:

L1090 – sent to Ottawa for comp tests with the XP40, later tests with the G-suit designed by Dr. Franks of Toronto.
P8332 – sent to Canada for bond drives, travels Ontario before ending up at Camp Borden. Restoration help by Don Campbel in 1960s’70s. At CWM Ottawa.
ER824 – MISS TORBAY – on the Empire Kingsley with two other Spitfires (ES117 and the other ???). The Central Maint. Unit rebuilt ER824 and test flew it before it was shipped back to the UK. Served with RCAF at Digby funny enough.
X4555 – BoB vet and flew with No. 13 Sqd until 1947. Fate ??
X4492 – See previous post
R7143 – PR version Type G like X4555, couple of wheels up landings, evently flown to RCNFAA Electrical School at HMCS Stadacona. Scrapped in 1948-0
JG480 – Sent to Kapuskasing, Ont for RCAF WEE testing. Sent to HMCS NADEN at Esquimalt Supply School. Eventually scrapped!
TZ138 – Another WEE aircraft, surplus in Aug 49 and sold to Dambuster Pilot Ken Brown. Entered in 1949 Cleveland Air races placed 3rd. Sold to US buyer and travelled around the states for some years, Over 20 owners and now back in Canada.
VN332 – the last of the WEE Spitfires, sold in 1951 after sitting outside to test the effects of co-cooning aircraft in all seasons. Crashed in Teterboro, NJ in the early 1950 killing Peter Freytag.

http://groups.msn.com/walshcollection/shoebox.msnw
http://me262.nfshost.com/mt/site/

thanks for posting

Hello Lee,

Fine research.

To complete the loop on this one.

X4992 was a PR Mk IV by the time it got to Canada and this shot clearly shows the PR windscreen without armourglass.

Doug Smith has kindly sent me a high res image of his father, Al, that he posted on the Flight Sim Forum, together with a further shot standing by the propeller.

Not only is an Armourglass windscreen visible but also that that Little inspection window on the top tank cover that we have discussed here re AR213.

Further the second shot shows the blister on the RH engine cowling for the Coffman cartridge, peculiar to the MK II. The ill fitting non-Spitfire propeller is yet a further indicator that this aircraft is Mk II P8332 in one of the many guises it wore prior to Museum display in Ottawa.

Mark

Mark

X4492 – History of Spitfires in Canada

Dear Mark & Steve,

I saw this interesting post and decided to post for some updates. I have been researching the history of each Spitfire in Canada from 1940 to 1951. During these years 11 Spitfires were in Canada with some leaving and heading back to the UK or Africa.

X4492, along with X4555 and R7143, were shipped to Canada in very early 1943. At this time Spitfire L1090 had arrived and left after testing of the XP-40 and this aircraft at Rockcliffe and then onto Toronto for testing with Dr. W. Franks and his G-suit at Malton. In early Feb 1943 we saw three other Spitfires arrived at Torbay, Nfld were they were wrecked on the Empire Kingsley. The crew there managed to rebuild one and return it to England as Miss Torbay (ER824). The other two wrecks were buried at Torbay – with people looking for them today.

As for the Rockcliffe Trio. They made there first flight in April of 1943 and did some minor photo testing with No. 13 Squadron at Rockcliffe and stayed there until 1947. Bellow is the entire history I have for X4492 and her fate is still unknown. By 1947 the RCAF was out of spares for these three aircraft and they were transferred to the Royal Cdn Navy Fleet Arm that fall. They were starting up with the Seafire program and wanted these airframes for teaching purposes.

During X4492’s tenure at Rockcliffe she did a number of hours and managed to survive being smashed up in crashes like X4555 or R7143 – both repaired but never still had problems. In July of 1945 X4492 was flown to Winnipeg by Tom Percival for Operation Eclipse. No. 13 had sent X4492 and a B-25 and their Anson for photograph this full eclipse at high altitude (35K). They photos later appeared in LIFE magazine (november 1945) and I scanned the photo bellow. I have a letter from Tom that detailed his accounts and remembers the flight being VERY cold – even in July.

These 3 Spitfires were in rough shape around 1947 and I am sure on R7143 was still flying. RCAF records show all three going the the RCNFAA and X4555 going to a RCN school in Halifax. I interviewed people from this school and they confirmed the Spitfire to be R7143 (this was an all silver Spitfire). I guess the other two couldn’t fly so the RCN flew R7143 out instead. What ever happened to X4555 and X4492 still remain a mystery. X4555 has an amazing combat history with No. 92 Sqd at Biggin Hill during the BoB.

All three were built as Mk. 1s but went through a number of conversions to PR versions and when shipped here had all arms removed. I cannot remember if this was an armed PR model unlike X4555 – bullet screen and all.

here is X4492 history after 10 years of research:

Mark: F. Ia
Serial Number: X4492
Contract No. B19713
Engine: Rolls Royce Merlin III

Built @ Eastleigh Factory, No. #1246.
First flight. July 14,1940.
Royal Aircraft Establishment, Farnborough. September 19, 1940.
Photographic Development Unit, Heston Aircraft Limited. November 14, 1940.
Converted to Mk. PR IV type D.
Rolls Royce’s Hucknall factory. Converted to Mk. Va
with Rolls Royce Merlin 45. January/March 1941.
No. 1 Photo Reconnaissance Unit RAF station Benson. April 29, 1941.
No. 8 Maintenance Unit RAF station Little Rissington.
Converted to Mk. PR VII. November 15, 1941.
@Boscombe Down, converted to Mk PR VI type C February 12, 1942.
later type F. Rolls Royce Merlin XIV.
No. 140 Squadron (ZW-*) RAF station Benson.
Category B near Sandown, Isle of White. April 22, 1942.
(Finished in light colors [pink] and codes DP)
Repaired aircraft awaiting collection most likely at Benson. June 29, 1942.
No. 9 Maintenance Unit ?. June 21, 1942.
No. 140 Squadron RAF station Benson. July 27, 1942.
No. 12 Maintenance Unit.
RAF station Benson. October 29, 1942.
No. 47 Maintenance Unit RAF station Sealand. December 5, 1942.
Manchester Dockyards, January 9, 1943.
Onboard the SS Manchester Progress for Montreal February 26, 1943.
Departure date January 16th and arrived on February l0th.
Unloaded and moved to Ottawa February 17, 1943.
Taken on Charge with No. 3 Training Command.
No. 13 Squadron/No. 7 Photo Wing RCAF station Rockcliffe. April 9, 1943.
First documented flight.
Flown to Toronto the next day. March, 1943.
In St. John, New Brunswick.
Flown to RCAF station Rivers {Manitoba} for Oper. July 9, 1945
Piloted by F/L Tom Percival and flown over Lake Winnipeg at 35,000 feet. Record breaking altitude record for photographing a solar eclipse.
In unit storage. December 31, 1945.
In Toronto for airshow – have photos June 30, 1946.
No. 9 Transport Group RCAF station Rockcliffe. July 15, 1946.
Props nicked on take off at RCAF station Rockcliffe. September 17, 1946.
Awaiting disposal. October 11, 1946.
Air Search and Rescue duties. January 9, 1947.
Royal Canadian Navy — Director of Naval Services. September 2, 1947.
Eventual allocation to RCN/VR unit unknown.

Photo of Tom Percival with X4492 – haven’t found the names of the two NCO’s with him.

Fascinating but I think you will find that the image has been mis-captioned.

X4492 had a PR windscreen, without ‘armourglass’, when in Canada and did not have that little square inspection window on the top fuel tank cover.

Mk II Spitfire P8332, in Canada in the late 1950’s, did have both of these features and also lost its canopy.

At that time it did not carry its former RAF identity serial on the fuselage, but a number of ground instructional Canadian serials, among others A166, 166B, 6173 etc

Mark

Hello Mark,

Someone on another flightsim forum seems to have found a picture from it which should date from the late fifties. Take a look here.

Greets,

Stieglitz

Yup, that’s the source.

Best wishes
Steve P

Hello Mark,

Someone on another flightsim forum seems to have found a picture from it which should date from the late fifties. Take a look here.

Greets,

Stieglitz

Does anyone know the history of this particular Spit. It seems that it was still extant in Canada in the late 1950s. Is it still with us?

Best wishes
Steve P

Steve,

Could you tell us the evidence for this?

X4492 a PR.Mk IV arrived in Canada 12 Feb 1943 for camera trials conducted by F/Lt PERCIVAL.

Mark