Spitfire X4650, Original Recovery Pictures?

Errr….he probably cannot facilitate that particular facility in his current facility.;)

Who is the magic gnome?,haven’t heard that one before.

Who is the magic gnome ? do they post on here?

Steve

Paul

Paragraph 1 of your post – correct!

Paragraph 2 of your post – seconded!

I think some of the posts rather add to a mystery than clear things up. Is the
“magic gnome” the one that is detained at Her Majesties Pleasure and is he the one who lived up a mountain and was the subject of a thread on here some months back? If that is correct I can see a little daylight through the fog!:)

As for the Spitfire concerned I am just happy that it restored to such a high standard and another part of our history lives on in its true element.

Apologies – injudicious posting after birthday celebrations!

I wasn’t suggesting it didn’t happen, or that there is any conspiracy – more that without evidence I suspect the story and the implied state of preservation may have become embroidered a little by the ‘Spitfire in a crate’ tendency over the years.

What exactly is “the mystery”?

Or am I missing something?

The wreckage of this aircraft was recovered, had a clear identity and subsequently was acquired by a third party who used it as a basis for a rebuild – presumably the wreckage being substantial and having a robust provenance.

If the absence of photos of the recovery is being used as the basis for some conspiracy theory then its not a very substatial or robust theory. Unless, of course, anyone honestly believes that it was pulled out of the mud intact, washed down, had the paint re-touched and Bob’s your uncle!!

Having had a very close look at the aircraft only last week it was both surprising and pleasing to see just how much original material is incorporated.

Seems like you need to be “one of the lads” to be in on this mystery.:rolleyes:

Our very own ‘X-Files’ :rolleyes:

At first, I read the Flypast article and took it at face value, thinking ‘I wish we’d found something even remotely like that in the Severnside group’. But then this thread got me thinking..

A whole Spitfire sitting in a river bank, after being dumped complete by the salvage crew into the river and then covered by deposition, preserved, and the revealed by some kind of erosion unknown to geomorphology caused by a drought ?

No-one in the historic aviation community has photos of the recovery or the recovered aircraft, and the only person who might have evidence is detained at Her Majesty’s pleasure?

My bullsh*t detector has its needle resting against the stop.

In the current issue of FlyPast, containing the extensive article on this aeroplane there seems ( to my quick-ish scan ) to be NO MENTION of input from ARCo, yet photographs were widely seen of the complete fuselage being trucked away from Duxford recently.

There is plenty of info online about VMI Engineering who seem to have played a part.

http://vmiengineering.com/Spitfire-Mk-1-X4650

Is this another subject upon which certain questions are not welcome?

PM sent to Sopwith to explain who the MG is !

Don’t forget that the original post by jont122 asked about photographs of the recovery of X4650 , Sgt Squire’s Spitfire whereas most of the posts concern X4276 which was Al Deere’s Spitfire . Apart from my own I have never seen any other photos of the wreckage from X4650 . Perhaps Peter Monk or one of the restoration team could help ?

This link is from the Telegraph of July 2010 and might be of interest ;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/world-war-2/battle-of-britain/7908245/Forgotten-Spitfire-will-fly-again-after-major-restoration.html

Who is the magic gnome?,haven’t heard that one before.

“gun sight , cockpit instruments and harness buckles”

sounds like more than enough for a rebuild.

My understanding is that the dig finds were divided amongst the medway group and the magic gnome; obviously if there were “substantial” salvable parts, (gathered together from the corners of the universe) they would have been incoporated into the rebuild, (and no doubt photographed for posterity); no need to worry then……

Yes !

Ken Ward excavated one of Al Deere’s Spitfires in Yorkshire. Is this the same one?

Interestingly the book ‘Al Deere , Wartime Fighter Pilot , Peacetime Commander , The Authorised Biography by Richard C Smith , Grub Street , 2003 , £18-99 has as its Appendix B a detailed list of ‘Excavation Recovery Of Crashed Spitfires Flown By Al Deere And Further Historical Information’ compiled with information provided by Mr David Smith of the Medway Aviation Research Group .

Spitfire X4276 ; includes an eye witness account of the crash given by Kirklevington resident John Hodgson in a letter to Dave Smith dated July 1987 . It also states that on “15 September that same year , Dave Smith excavated the site with other local enthusiasts . The complete aircraft with the exception of the tail was still in the ground . The collection of items recovered included a complete Merlin engine , gun sight , cockpit instruments and harness buckles etc .”

On page 196 there is a copy of an old series OS map with the location of the crash site marked on it as well as the location of Mr Hodgson when he witnesed Deere descending by parachute .

Page 197 has 3 black and white photographs ;
1) A complete Merlin engine still with a Rolls Royce nameplate attached .
2) Mr Hodgson photographed during the recovery with a JCB behind him .
3) The Merlin prop boss

So obviously a little bit more than a ‘carrier bag’ of bits was recovered from the crash site !

It would be interesting to know if Dave Smith , note not the David J Smith , had an MOD licence to recover the Spitfire at that time and that perhaps he too has some photographs of the recovery ?

Is this the infamous “carrier bag” of bits from the private collection of the magic gnome? must have crashed (headlong) into a big bowl of blancmange, if, (as reported) the Merlin was almost intact; another triumph of bullsh!t over substance…..

X4650 ; I visited this crash site on 29 September 1977 and found several items of wreckage on the bankside of the River Leven which had been unearthed by the swollen river . I was told by the farmer that the engine was still in the river although the Flypast article claims that it was recovered in 1976 ? I have some photos of the wreckage although they are of poor quality and I do not have a scanner . Sorry !

X4276 ; Again visited the location of this aircraft on the same date but no surface wreckage found . The land is owned by a different farmer or was then and he knew of the mid-air incident and the involvement of Al Deere . The aircraft was recovered by a local man in September 1987 and removed to his private museum in the area . The recovery was recorded in The Northern Echo , Thursday 17 September 1987 , page 5 . The report states that ” the planes Merlin engine was brought out almost intact. Closeby were parts of the cockpit and other items which confirmed the pilot was the famous Battle of Britain fighter ace Squadron Leader Alan Deere .” It also goes on to say ” Part of the cockpit unearthed in the 50-acre field bore the Kiwi emblem of the distinguished pilot .”

The rebuild of X4650 featured in Flypast a few years ago and at that time I did have a letter published in the magazine querying if in fact the restorers had identified the aircraft correctly ? One of their team did reply confirming as such but I never could understand why Deere’s Spitfire was never the ‘lead aircraft’ in the rebuild and its serial number taken up instead of Squires ?

I can supply copies of the ‘Echo article on receipt of a pm and apologies to Jack Ruskin for missing his earlier post .

Yep.

re;

That’s exactly what I thought when I read the article, or even of the remains.

No-one has said anything, but I do wonder if there’s a book forthcoming as with P(forgetthebloominnumber).

Andy, Mark12? I bet they know…

Adrian

P9374 isnt it?