Spitfire XVIII TP285

How do we inform the rest of the world?

Posting it on here usually achieves that :rolleyes:

Allright. This useful infomation was new to me. Thanks. How do we inform the rest of the world?

just for everybodys info
TP 263 was HS 649 and TP285 was HS 656 in RIAF service.

Now that didn’t come from ‘Spitfire International’. 🙂

Mark

just for everybodys info
TP 263 was HS 649 and TP285 was HS 656 in RIAF service.

Mark – I too was disappointed to see yet another ‘Spitfire Survey’ but several pages on the perfect antidote fresh unadulterated Whirlwinds of the rotary variety!

Spitfire MK XVIII TP263

Although this thread is two years old it is disappointing to see in the latest issue of Flypaper, a Spitfire Special, that Todd Garvey is still referring to this Spitfire as TP285 in his ’25 Years of Change’ feature. It is TP263.

When this aircraft, HS649 of the Indian Air Force, was acquired by the Haydon-Baillie organisation along with several others in 1977 it was the runt of the litter. It had been up on its nose quite severely, there was evidence of an engine bay fire and the rear end had suffered a major impact, the fuselage being visibly twisted. With a few rumblings of discontent among the contracted purchases it was decided to split this machine in India, the wings going to Rudy Frasca along with his pair to the USA and the fuselage coming to the UK to end up with the Wickenden Brothers pair via Spencer Flack.

Despite extensive examination in all the usual places the RAF serial could not be found on the fuselage. The tail unit however showed evidence of TP285 on access panels and the fuselage was given this provisional identity.

At the time of the writers visit to Rudy Frasca the wings were stored flat with radiators down. It was only when the wings, now part of a general Mk XIV collection including the fuselages of RM694 and RM927, were transferred to the UK, that the undersides of the wings could be examined in December 1998, some twenty years later. There for all the world to see on both wings was the RAF serial TP263 applied twice and finally over painted HS649 clearly indicating that there had not been an intervening wing change.

The condition and completeness of ‘TP285’/TP263 has to be considered in the context of early 1980’s airworthy Spitfire restorations and their financial viability. Then, it was not viable.

An opportunity existed to make an exchange with the Overloon Mk XI PL965, with the requirement being a fighter version. Using some US and some SAAF wing components a representative high back MK XIV was fashioned using the Indian fuselage as a base. New high back quarter frames were installed rather than a ‘Mark Addie’ conversion. With no RAF serial provenance known at that time the Indian serial HS649 was ‘adjusted’ to Mk XIVesque ‘NH649’.

Mark

At Nettleden in September 1979

At Hastings in November 1984

At Hastings in May 1985

Does anyone know how extensive that rebuild was?

Was it equivalent to a “Mark Addie” – where the original low back structure remains underneath, or did they rebuild the fuselage completely? A shame if the original structure was lost in the rebuild.

The roundel police still has’nt come by to correct the roundel on the Harvard. Witch as you nitice is in mirror view.

So it is! Oops. You could almost forgive someone outside the Netherlands doing that but…..

Looks like I’ve promised something, better live up to it. I’ve posted these before but here are the aircraft at Overloon as they were in the late 80’s/early 90’s.

Edit: I could’ve just linked here of course.

The roundel police still has’nt come by to correct the roundel on the Harvard. Witch as you nitice is in mirror view.

Thank’s Nigel. I’ve been looking for this information for quite some time.

Overloon Museum
This is my very first posting as i am new to the forum,
I have in my records that the Harvard at Overloon is a IIB c/n 14-610 42-12363 , FE876 and B-199. Rebuilt using parts of B-69 & B-179. S.O.C 28/11/1962

Nigel

Great pics, cheers 🙂

I saw that the request for a proper picture of TP285 hadn’t been answered. The Overloon museum reopened earlier this year after a merge with another collection.
I revisted the museum on 18 june 2006. The number of military vehicles has increased dramatically. The number of aircraft rose from 3 to 4.

A Mig 21 is now part of a cold war diorama.

Spit XVIII TP285 now flies over the D-day beaches.

The Mitchel is well known

and the Harvard still a mystery to me.

Correct, Daz.

It was converted from high-back to low-back to resemble a Mk XIV for museum display.

I’ve got some photos which I took at Ralph Hull’s workshop in Ludham during the 1980s of the restoration (to static condition) in progress – I’ll dig them out and post then at the weekend if you’re interested.

Mike – look who you’re asking?! 😉

Correct, Daz.

It was converted from high-back to low-back to resemble a Mk XIV for museum display.

I’ve got some photos which I took at Ralph Hull’s workshop in Ludham during the 1980s of the restoration (to static condition) in progress – I’ll dig them out and post then at the weekend if you’re interested.

Mike, it was t’other way round, low-back into the current high-back guise

But you knew that, slip of the digit’s no doubt 😉

I’m a bit confused. From the photos, it has a highback fuselage, when as far as I’m aware the XVIII had a lowback :confused:

I have two photos which are pretty similar to the ones posted by Skypilot, I could scan them one of these days.

Interestingly the website of the museum describes the aircraft as an ‘ex-322 Sqn aircraft which was sold to India, and subsequently restored for the museum’. I guess there’s room for improvement there :rolleyes:

…for TP285 read TP263

Well the tail unit of TP285…and that was the only RAF identifying serial on the fuselage and tail group when recovered to the UK in 1979. At that time this serial did not fit too well with the fuselage data plates but they are complex and there are anomalies. The Indian serial HS649 however was clear in many places.

This aircraft was divided up in India to satisfy contractual obligations by the Haydon-Baillie organisation in the disposal of several Indian Spitfires.

The wings of this machine went direct to the US from India and were being stored flat, radiators down, when in the ownership of Rudy Frasca on my visit. They subsequently went into storage with the late Don Knapp in Florida and ‘out of sight’ as part of his Mk XIV projects store.

When the former Knapp collection finally got to the UK and were inspected in 1999, there was ample evidence of both the Indian serial HS649, believed to have been applied in the UK prior to delivery, over the RAF serial TP263, on both wings, as seen in the attached photo.

The tail unit had clearly been changed in service. To change both wings at the same time on an ‘as new’ Spitfire is deemed unlikely.

With all paint investigation it is as well to remember that the most faded is last application and the most vibrant the earliest application. The definition of the serials on the wings has been enhanced with a felt tip outline for photo reference purpose.

As the true RAF ID was unknown when the Overloon machine was in preparation as a Mk XIV, an NH serial was chosen incorporating its Indian HS649 ID, hence ‘NH649’.

That is the trouble with ‘list of lists’ research on the internet. 🙂

Mark

I presume you mean this one. I took these pics in 1987 whilst at RAF Laarbruch on an ATC camp so the quality ain’t the greatest!

If you want better copies for yourself Daz, I can scan them in at a higher res and “tinker” with them, just let me know.

Dean