Spitfires from Birmingham/Brum (or not?)

Crazy. These old guys were just kids when the war ended. I can’t really comment of the validity of Mr.Cundall’s claims for Burma, but this story of Spit’s buried in Brum is very fanciful and already well chewed-over and is even less likely to be factual. I knew people who worked there and friends had parents who worked there – all at management level, and there was never a squeak about this myth. Ever. After the war, as soon as aircraft production ended, the whole place was cleared of jigs, machinery, materials. The remaining sub-assemblies went-off to other plants to be finished. With so many people around, in such a large plant in such a large city, this would have been as difficult to keep secret as it would have been pointless. One Spit was saved and loaned to Birmingham Museum of Science and Industry and it is now in the Think Tank I understand. That’s about as close as this myth gets to reality.

Look out Brum, here comes Baldrick !

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/time-teams-tony-robinson-excited-1325417

I didn’t follow it, but I seem to recall a photo of a very battered wreck on the dump, then photos of what was left of the lower section of the fus being dug-up years later. Not exactly Cundalesque in terms of completeness. Andy seems to be playing it both ways 🙂

“Substantial deliberate burial” Snoopy?

And Kenley doesn’t count?

Saw that one too. Wasn’t it a Boston in the marshes up by Liverpool..?

Er No! Problem with facts again? Try Google!

Keep changing the goalposts Snoopy you will get to where you want to be in the end! :p

Naa….

Saw that one too. Wasn’t it a Boston in the marshes up by Liverpool..? Granted, it’s a big chunk of wreckage , but the drift here was abour rumour of substantial deliberate burying, like the ‘Burma/Birmingham Spitfires’. Anythings possible, but I cannot think of any such find. 🙂

Nice one, Nick!

I’m sorry if I’ve upset one or two enthusiasts by calling a spade a spade, but general clutter dumped in the ground is ‘scrap’ by any normal definition. Just because we might dig stuff up today and value it doesn’t alter the facts.

I’m aware of most of the items listed by posters, but my point was clearly related to finding whole a/c buried/scrapped/hidden. Or quantities of engines perhaps. These adenoidal stories about Lancasters and Spitfires at VACBAF are for items of that order. I have little doubt that most wartime airfields might hold holes filled with some general scrap – but there is no precedent for whole machines. Yet.

Its OK Snoopy, I’m not upset, life’s too short, but lets be clear here, you are talking of your opinions not “facts” as you keep stating – you are certainly entitled to your opinions – but please remember – so is everyone else!

Oh! and you want a whole buried aircraft? – Try this one I made earlier 😀

Actually two found at Kenley,

PK665 Mk.22 – fuselage and tail unit dug up early 1960s. Subsequently scrapped.
TB885 Mk.XVI – complete aircraft eventually dug up in 1982. Currently stored awaiting its turn.

Not quite true.

Mark12 will doubtless point us to the famous Kenley dump Spitfire. But that was pretty much a one-off.

Camels…..!

Now there’s a thought to conjure with….! Strangely enough, decades before VACBAF was established, they were manufacturing aeroplanes at Castle Bromwich for the Great War……and no, I know nothing Mr.Fawlty…!

I’m sorry if I’ve upset one or two enthusiasts by calling a spade a spade, but general clutter dumped in the ground is ‘scrap’ by any normal definition. Just because we might dig stuff up today and value it doesn’t alter the facts.

I’m aware of most of the items listed by posters, but my point was clearly related to finding whole a/c buried/scrapped/hidden. Or quantities of engines perhaps. These adenoidal stories about Lancasters and Spitfires at VACBAF are for items of that order. I have little doubt that most wartime airfields might hold holes filled with some general scrap – but there is no precedent for whole machines. Yet.

I think the closest anyones going to get is all the stuff that was pushed-off the Carriers on there way back from the Far East. The good news is that ‘ALVIN’ has just been rebuilt…:diablo:

Snoopy7422, are you suggesting there are buried Sopwith Camels in Brum???
Wow! I hadn’t heard that one before. Do the Israeli’s know about them?

Whatever – the basic fact is, there really have not been any meaningful finds of buried a/c or engines in the UK – to my knowledge. These stories are like candies, everyone seems to want one. There is NO shortage of these stories, but, it seems, a complete absence of FACTS……!

I have certainly heard of, from reliable sources and seen photos of, a few pretty meaningful finds over the years, including the aforementioned turrets and Typhoon parts. But also recall the Albemarle sections recovered, that were buried at a well known quarry site in Cumbria – now IMO they were also pretty substantial as they filled two large articulated trailer loads and comprised two pretty complete centre section frames (shame they eventually found their way to the scrap dealer after all the effort put in to trying save them).

So whilst I personally think this particular story of buried Spitfires is another load of B***s**t being ramped up by a few individuals to serve their own obscure ends as well as the press for their usual reasons (which rarely let things like fact get in the way) – I have to say that the argument that it is “FACT” that no such finds have ever been made is rather weak here.

I have no doubt that there are still “meaningful finds” to be made & hope people will not be put off by these hyped-up fantasies and will carry on searching – but I think anyone needing funding is going to have a bumpy ride!

I saw the parts Ron Murphy and Co recovered in I guess 1992 -certainly ‘scrap’ would be a good description for it to the non enthusiast -however there were certainly some nice bits!

Wasn’t a lot of this stuff sent off to the scrapyard as RM couldn’t find a home for it ?. The story I heard was that a lot of stuff was in good condition “tubing like new” was one phrase, but he didn’t want to pay to store it, so let a lot go for scrap.

Any clues as to what happened to the couple of bits off of a DH Albatross, that were found ?.

Bob T.

I saw the parts Ron Murphy and Co recovered in I guess 1992 -certainly ‘scrap’ would be a good description for it to the non enthusiast -however there were certainly some nice bits!

Scrap? interesting term used on something you have never seen…..

If it was scrapped then it is, by definition, scrap. However, if you use it again that is recycling which is all very green and tree huggy and so therefore a good thing.

Scrap? interesting term used on something you have never seen…..

For Sure.

..for sure various holes have yielded some scrap, but that’s a world away from whole aircraft. The issue was really about whole a/c being buried.

My interest concentrates solely on Typhoons (and Tempests) and from that interest there are at least 2 sites that have been investigated and significant finds made….1 for all the Tempest and Typhoon Firewalls, brackets etc and 1 for all the turrets (and a cockpit section) discovered. I am sure there are more where people have done the ground work and physically investigated the site. There are of course others that don’t pan out but how many of the ‘rumours’ have actually been investigated? never say never as you may be surprised.

How Do You Keep THAT Secret…?

How could this be done secretly with thousands of people around. VACBAF employed around 12,500 people at it’s height….????? What are the chances- really…???

I had a close friend who was a manager at VACBAF throughout the war. There was no mention of any ‘buried Spitfires’. Ever.

I’ve discussed this with another friend who’s father was a manager at VACBAF throughout the war. There was/is no mention of any ‘buried Spitfires’. Ever.

I have another friend who also knew both of the above – who is still alive. He has no knowledge of any ‘buried Spitfires’….and he’s still got all his marbles. He moved away – so it’s all news to him…!

It strikes me that many of these rumours eminate from children and youths. They then garner a certain authority and mystique simply by virtue of their age. The ‘witnesses’ mentioned in the Birmingham Post/Mail/Mercury article were aged about Fifteen at the end of the war. Need any more be said….??????

I’ve heard endless rumours of buried a/c and engines. I think most originate from spotty adenoidal yoofs, – and then get repeated by folks who should – by and large know better. Ironically, stuff was buried (Not at VACBAF.), but then retreived when the value ofscrap metal went up again. Whatever – the basic fact is, there really have not been any meaningful finds of buried a/c or engines in the UK – to my knowledge. These stories are like candies, everyone seems to want one. There is NO shortage of these stories, but, it seems, a complete absence of FACTS.

Some years ago, the ‘buried aircraft’ at VACBAF were supposed to be Lancasters. Now, conveniently, they have transmoggrified into the currently fashionable Spitfires. It’ll be Camels next…..!