Spitting Fire @ Duxford – an IDEA!

Normandy 44, although I’ve now retired from such shenanigans!

😀 Likewise from WW2 LHA – 1st AB Recce…. :rolleyes:

Nice idea but I can’t see it coming off, if only on insurance grounds!

Must say that’s an improvement on a few years ago when I last was involved in such activities. 🙂

Aah, Steve Vickers and his loud toy cupboard….. 😉

Detling eh……what LH group would that have been with?

Normandy 44, although I’ve now retired from such shenanigans!

In fact, I think it may have been a different weapon supplier at Detling. I certainly paid the same figures to Steve and Mrs. earlier on in the year.

.303 blanks: 21.15 per 100rnds inc. VAT – not old stuff either!

plus £50 got me a “live” Thompson SMG for 3 days of shows at Detling this year from Vickers Sporting Services.

Must say that’s an improvement on a few years ago when I last was involved in such activities. 🙂

Aah, Steve Vickers and his loud toy cupboard….. 😉

Detling eh……what LH group would that have been with?

the small matter of the not inconsiderable cost involved, .303 blanks in partucular arn’t cheap, as there isn’t an awful lot of ex-mil blanks left.

Great idea though……would be nice from a veterans point of view, say an armourers re-union for example.

.303 blanks: 21.15 per 100rnds inc. VAT – not old stuff either! a possible alternative for a “bang” would be the gas-firing weapons that living history vehicles are often fitted with (same type as the quad Flak guns fired on “Day of Days” in Band of Brothers)

One does not need a licence to hire and fire an MG either – 2 forms of ID with address and photos, plus £50 got me a “live” Thompson SMG for 3 days of shows at Detling this year from Vickers Sporting Services. Ammo was extra – £35 per 100 rounds .45ACP. In previous years I or my associates have also hired .30cal Brownings, BAR’s, M3 Grease guns, M1 Garands, No.4 Lee-Enfields, MG42’s, .50cal Brownings (AWESOME noise!), Bren’s etc., etc.

Obtaining live aircraft – type Brownings may be more of a challenge but I’ve had dealings with several arms companies who can/could even supply live WW1 Aerial Lewis guns, assuming you have the right licence, 20mm cannons, MG151’s etc. Deactivation extra cost.

The main issues are the ones mentioned about the aircraft itself.

I seem to recall them being used (briefly) in a sequence in Aces: Iron Eagle 3 – you have to be quick to catch it, though!

Spencer Flack’s Spitfire XIV G-FIRE used to have strobe lights in the cannon muzzles when still in the UK. Don’t know if there was any sound to go with it. Does it have it still while in the US?

Cheers

Cees

Interesting thread to be revived. If I had an airworthy spit, I would not want to put live guns in my Spitfire! Here are a few reasons to pop this in the not worth the bother category:-

1. Finding 8 live brownings very expensive.
2. Getting a licence to have 1 let alone 8 MGs is impossible for the private individual
3. Airworthy aircraft tend to have the extraneous weight of weapons systems (pipework, connectors etc) stripped out.
4. The wings of a static aircraft would (unless the rivets were recent) probably open up as the rivets gave way. Old rivets end up with internal out corrosion.
5. Cost versus benefit.
6. risk assessments, health & safety, poor media attention etc etc

there’s 6 to be getting on with. A simulation would be much more easier.
I am hoping to set up an air rig on a spade grip gun button to give people the feel of what firing eight guns felt like in a cockpit.
regards
Canada TD

or even better

how about a night firing exercise, with lots of tracer… and maybe a later mark with two cannons and four m/g’s? Sounds good to me, when can you start blackmailing the authorities? I actually thought about this when watching the aforementioned History Channel (I think) program on the Spit vs Me109, when they did the live firing bit at the range. Not to downplay the efforts of all who worked on the program, but would it not have been more interesting perhaps to see the effects of the respective weapons on something better than a flat sheet of aluminum? How about a few sections of decrepit Cessna wing and a few alloy auto engines from the scrapper? And to go one better, how about lining up eight Browning m/g’s abreast at the proper intervals to mimic a Spit wing, and have them all sync’d to 250 yds? Anyways, I am sure this has been covered before, but I’m new here…

cheers

greg v

There would be no problem with blank firing in public, if the HSE guidelines already in place were adhered to.
The weapons would’nt be a particulair big problem as long as they existed, as an organisation such as Bapty’s could be involved.
As Mark12 said getting a suitable airframe with the servicable working parts to fire the guns might be one of the biggest drawbacks.

In reality this would be all perfectly feasible and achievable, but not very likely on the basis of it being a logistical nightmare and the small matter of the not inconsiderable cost involved, .303 blanks in partucular arn’t cheap, as there isn’t an awful lot of ex-mil blanks left.

Great idea though……would be nice from a veterans point of view, say an armourers re-union for example.

As an aside with reference to the asfety or otherwise of Blank Ammo at Public Displays.

I watched tne Festival of Rememberance from the Albert Hall last night, at the end of a marching demonstration by the RAF Regt the men all fired a burst of blanks from their SA-80’s (and none of them jammed either!!) I know its a different callibre but surely that makes a statement on safety of blank ammo if they are preparred to fire them in the same room as 3 senior members of the Royal Family including their Boss!!

Just a thought.

I have been told and also read that the USAF regularly fires live ammo and even bombs at some of their bigger airshows. With their record of friendly-fire incidents, I personally would not want to be in the crowd. 😮

If, as suggested, this be done for a documentary rather than the public, it’s a waste of time. There must be oodles of footage already from training films, etc.

It is a long time since I fired a Browning but I seem to remember the gas generated was integral to the feed and operation of the gun. I might be wrong but I suspect it is not technically possible to fire continuous blank rounds of .303 or .50 through the appropriate Browning.

Mark

You’d have to use blank-adapters much like we us here on our MILES systems.

Legality.

Apart from the engineering there is the little problem of the legality of a person or Establishment in the UK owning all or part of an automatic weapon.

There are at least two Spitfire projects under rebuild/restoration that have been, or will be refitted by time of first flight, with .303 Browning machine guns. These guns have been fully de-activated within the UK legal system to an approved schedule and issued with a full de-activation certificate per unit. They will never ever fire a round of live or blank ammunition again.

It is a long time since I fired a Browning but I seem to remember the gas generated was integral to the feed and operation of the gun. I might be wrong but I suspect it is not technically possible to fire continuous blank rounds of .303 or .50 through the appropriate Browning.

On the engineering front there are an awful lot of ancillary parts required to make the gun fire by pneumatic pressure, feed from the storage box and eject the spent cartridge.

A nice thought to romance but unfortunately it isn’t going to be happen in the UK. 🙁

Mark

Depends how they installed it on the Nanchang, I’d have thought.

Mind you, there’s the Bf108 in New Zealand with propane MGs on the cowlings…

Gas ?

I seem to recall seeing on TV a Nanching or Yak that had been fiitted with a fake MG that appeared to fire by way of exploding bursts of gas. None of the dangers of blanks, no recoil damage to aged wings and no need to put together a working Browning 303. It looked very effective on TV. How about that as an alternative?

I wouldn’t have thought there would be significant damage from firing machine-guns in an aircraft’s wing, providing they’re set up right.

Damage would really only occur should there be a misfire with one of the guns.

Apart from anything else is there any ammo to be able to accommodate this?
Then there is the wear and tear on the guns themselves.
Anyway, the slightest mistake and the media would have a field day… – Nermal

A bit of a cop out I know, but it could be simulated with a replica aircraft pointing into butts with the resulting effects from a real firing range session projected onto some sort of screen. Some of the displays in the Farnborough exhibition halls were very life like.
mmitch.

I think that it would be an excellent idea! I would definitely go and see what a spitfire firing 8 brownings,live or blanks, against the butts at DX, I believe i have seen a wartime photograph of a hurricane doing similar, although not with blanks of course, at night, and it looked suitably dramatic! and frightening.

however i know several hippies who would rather not be insulted by the use of the term “tree hugger” to describe the anti-noise *******s in DX village!

Are there not laws which would forbid the fitting of live machine guns to a civillian owned aircraft?

ah well will have to use a bbmf one!

is the risk of damage to the airframe that high?

Jay