Stanley James Margrie

As Moggy has already pointed out, a bad head cold can seriously affect ones ability to fly accurately. The pilot had a number instruments in front of him to enable him to fly blind. Of these the Turn and Bank Indicator and an Artificial horizon as well as his Airspeed indicator were the most important. If he lost concentration or he had difficulty reading these (or a fault had occurred) and instead he relied on his own impaired senses he would soon lose control. The GEE mentioned was a radar navigation equipment. This report seems to make nonsense of much of the so called eye witness reports in the earlier posts.

John

So you mean the cold would have caused him not to know where he was then in the sky? Is that why he was upside down as he was coming down.

If you look at the weather it was overcast (10/10 cloud) at 1300ft, which is low.

Flying at night you can do by looking out of the window, even in the dark you will generally get an horizon. But flying in cloud you have to rely totally on your instruments, the window doesn’t help you. The problem is that your senses will often tell you a different story from the instruments and there is simply no way around it, you HAVE to rely on your instruments and ignore your perception. That’s hard to do when your senses are telling you that you are dropping out of the sky, even though your instruments say you aren’t.

We don’t know how much instrument time Russell had logged, but it might not have been a huge amount (by the standards of a modern airline pilot say). Now if his balance organs were affected by his cold then he might have found the messages he was getting too acute to ignore.

Watch this two minute video to give you some sense of what can happen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7t4IR-3mSo

Only two things would make an Anson appear from the sky upside down, either pilot disorientation or a cataclysmic airframe failure. But also remember we have only one witness and a little physical evidence that this was the case, and eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable.

We won’t solve this mystery here. But what I have suggested is one possible scenario.

Moggy

So the crash was caused by Russell having a cold and not going to the M O to be signed of work then?

No thats not what the report says,it MAY have been a factor but only may.Unfortunately you will never know ,they are only theories at best.The aircraft was ok [as best as they could tell] ,the weather was ok ,the pilot had had a cold but hadn’t gone to the M O so unfortunately how badly it affected him we will never know,all theories.

A cold would/could block his ear,nose,sinuses which keep your balance senses in trim ,tells you whether you are leaning,stationary,correct way up,it’s wiki but the basics are there https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestibular_system.
If you stand in a dark room how do you know which is correct? ,add noise ,confusion,tiredness and dont forget it only takes a second to lose alot of height .

So the crash was caused by Russell having a cold and not going to the M O to be signed of work then?

So you mean the cold would have caused him not to know where he was then in the sky? Is that why he was upside down as he was coming down.

A cold would/could block his ear,nose,sinuses which keep your balance senses in trim ,tells you whether you are leaning,stationary,correct way up,it’s wiki but the basics are there https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestibular_system.
If you stand in a dark room how do you know which is correct? ,add noise ,confusion,tiredness and dont forget it only takes a second to lose alot of height .

This looks like a lot of a*se-covering to me.

A bad cold can frequently affect the delicate balance organs in the ear and even pilots with considerably greater instrument flying experience than Warrant Officer Russell have fallen victim to ‘The Leans’.

Moggy

So you mean the cold would have caused him not to know where he was then in the sky? Is that why he was upside down as he was coming down.

REMARKS OF THE COMMANDING OFFICER (19.1.45)
I can add nothing to the conclusions of the Investigating Officer detailed above. Seems unlikely that a pilot with 600 hours to his credit would have efficiency so impaired by the after effects of a cold that he would utterly lost control of an Anson aircraft. W/O Russell had not reported sick or been treated by the M O.

REMARKS OF THE AIR OFFICER COMMANDING
Agrees with the finding of the Investigating officer, but does not consider the after erect of the cold could have caused the pilot to lose control of the aircraft.

REMARKS OF THE AIR OFFICER COMMANDING IN CHIEF
Remarks of the group commander are concurred in.

This looks like a lot of a*se-covering to me.

A bad cold can frequently affect the delicate balance organs in the ear and even pilots with considerably greater instrument flying experience than Warrant Officer Russell have fallen victim to ‘The Leans’.

Moggy

Got the report of Stanley James Accident today!!

Here is what it says:

Report of flying accident on 13th January 1945

W/O Russell a pilot of 60.O.U.T.accompanied by a staff Navigator and 4 pupil Navigator took off in Anson MK.890 at 23.30 hours on the 12th January 1945, to carry out a night GEE and map reading exercise. His course was to be: BASE NESWTON NANTWICH RUGELEY LEAMINGTON TEWKEBURY BRIDGNOTH OSWESTRY STONE MUCH WENLCK BASE. This route is elastic and depends to a great degree on instructions from the staff navigator. Moreover, at briefing pilots had be told to stay in the north of the area, if the weather was indifferent in the south.
At 01.55 W/O Russell was seen by Mr. C H Weaver flying fairly low on a southerly course: the starboard navigation light waws above two white lights. This suggests that the aircraft was either banked to port, or that it was on its back. The latter postulate seems the most likely, and this is also borne out by the technical evidence: the only cylinder remaining attached to the starboard engine was on at the bottom of the engine, where it was protected by a propeller blade.
After passing almost overhead, Mr C H Weaver states that the engine sound changed to a scream and the aircraft dived into the ground.
Weather conditions at the time of the accident were: visibility 3 miles clouds 10/10th of 1300 feet Wind N E 8 MPH Weather slight mist. .
FINDINGS OF THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER f/lt f white (8.1.45.)
The pilot was fully briefed. The flight properly authorised, the weather suitable and the aircraft serviceable for the flight. The primary case of the accident was, in his opinion, loss of control at night: it is considered that the technical evidence is not sufficiently conclusive to point to engine failure.
It is noteworthy that this pilot had been off flying for two days prior to the accident on account of a bad cold and it is considered that this may have been a contributory factor.
REMARKS OF THE COMMANDING OFFICER (19.1.45)
I can add nothing to the conclusions of the Investigating Officer detailed above. Seems unlikely that a pilot with 600 hours to his credit would have efficiency so impaired by the after effects of a cold that he would utterly lost control of an Anson aircraft. W/O Russell had not reported sick or been treated by the M O.
REMARKS OF THE AIR OFFICER COMMANDING
Agrees with the finding of the Investigating officer, but does not consider the after erect of the cold could have caused the pilot to lose control of the aircraft.
REMARKSW OF THE AIR OFFICER COMMANDING IN CHIEF
Remarks of the group commander are concurred in.

Hope that he answers my private message!!

Pistonrob said he was doing the research for a relative of Margrie’s

I doubt whether he will be any relation or acquaintance of yours, just an aviation historian interested in this accident. Good luck!

I have just sent pistonrob a private message asking who he is!! Never heard of him before!!

The Forum member ‘pistonrob’ last visited the Forum in February 2015, so not likely to come across this thread anytime soon. Check out his details by clicking on his name and you will find several links to him, one of which should elicit a response.

These are his details,i would love to know what the link is between Dianesowden and him and this accident? http://forum.keypublishing.com/member.php?31322-pistonrob of all the planes ,aircrew and crashes throughout ww2 -quite a coincidence.

eemmmmm!!!! NOT me I am afraid!!

Wish I knew whom it was though, is there anyway to find out do you know please?

The Forum member ‘pistonrob’ last visited the Forum in February 2015, so not likely to come across this thread anytime soon. Check out his details by clicking on his name and you will find several links to him, one of which should elicit a response.

WELL DONE on finding my website!!

You now know that I do other things other than researching my uncle!!

As the originator of the comment “heard down the pub”, it simply meant ‘Gossip’ probably second or third hand at a later date. This was probably enough to upset your mother for her to believe it and to pass it on to you.

I suggest that your uncle met his end in an all too common flying training accident and that his traumatised but intact remains were interned decently and properly and with no official mystery.

Re an earlier post, I think that the fact Hornchurch where he is laid to rest, had an aerodrome, a fighter station, is only coincidence.

Flying Officer Stan Margies Service record is held somewhere and as a family member you can access it. We can’t. However as to his death it may only state ‘Killed whilst flying’. The crash report from the Board of Investigation will give the Official comments on what might have caused the crash. So many young men went bravely into the War but sadly a large number didn’t get through it.

Regards

John

I wonder if this is Diane….

http://dianesowden.simpl.com/index.html

eemmmmm!!!! NOT me I am afraid!!

Wish I knew whom it was though, is there anyway to find out do you know please?

Yup,

It’s why I got fed up repeating the work.

All a bit -” I reject your realitly and substitute an alternative of my own liking”.

Ross

A thread from 2011 ,what a coincidence