Stirling Discovery In France

Mr Gowans. As the moderator has said he wishes this thread to focus on the topic of the Stirling and I’d don’t wish to sidetrack it, I’l say no more on the subject than:

– if something is a fact, describe it as a fact
– if you state something to be your belief, one must assume that you do so because you can’t assert it as a fact
– it’s unreasonable for you to make statements of belief, in respect of matters that you don’t know to be facts, and then urge others not to do likewise

And that’s the end of the matter as far as I’m concerned.

Moggy I’ll not dispute the facts as you have set them out, as I don’t know any different; am I wrong in thinking that this aeroplane crashed near a gypsy encampment?
not that I’m suggesting their involvement, but as I understand it, the site could never be described as isolated, and what was found on the previous dig? we see all to often now that aircraft dug in the ’70’s (for example) that items not considered valuable are just thrown back in the hole, priorities (with regards to value) have change over the years, cockpit parts, engines, guns and yes personal effects were the “spoils of war”

Are you saying that the smattering of personal effects that you have listed above were deliberately removed from the decomposed remains of the crew? I for one cannot see why you would bother to do that for so little and then hide said remains (presumably back in the hole to be discovered on the next dig) and if you are suggesting that there was far more found (and not revealed) then why admit to finding anything?

As I didn’t see you last post whilst typing my reply either move this reply or delete it as you normally do. Edit – Might as well stay where it is

Now, please forgive me for coming over all moderatorial but any further discussion of the sad tale of the Normandy Lancaster should appear on the appropriate thread. Here’s a link to make it easy.

forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?119712-Lancaster-recovery-in-Normandy

This has strayed far too far away from the topic of the Stirling.

Moggy
Moderator

I urge you and others to restrict yourselves to fact.

Fact: The cockpit area was excavated and no human remains were declared as being found. (OK so far?)

Fact: One of the RAF fliers silver plated cigarette case was found twisted by the force of the impact.

Fact: A watch was ‘torn from the wrist of an airman’ (Fair enough, odd thinks happen in aircraft accidents).

Fact: Mr Graves also found a forage cap, and the remains of three RAF woollen jumpers.

Fact: The aircraft took off at 0256 that June morning. June mornings at that time would not be warm enough to fly in shirtsleeves. Certainly not 5/6 June 1944.

Fact: At least one tunic was found (See above)

Fact: Lodged inside the sleeve of one jumper was discovered a single German 7.92mm bullet. It is impossible the second thickness of wool would stop a bullet from exiting an empty sleeve

Fact: Also recovered were an officer’s forage cap, a pocket from an RAF tunic with a Waterman pen still clipped inside and a silk flying glove.

Fact: Four undeployed chutes were found (So it’s certain that a minimum of four crew members rode the aircraft down)

Fact: None of the crew were ever identified at the time or by any earlier digs

Fact: Had any earlier digs reached the cockpit area and quietly spirited away human remains it is not believable that they would leave that list of artefacts in situ

There you go then. Perfectly clear?

Moggy

Well Avion I bow to your superior knowledge, if I am wrong on both counts then I’m happy to say so however I don’t think I’ll end up in a court of law for “believing” someone innocent until proven guilty ,and not on a forum such as this either.

Do we take it then that he was proscecuted by the French authorities then, or have you deliberately quoted me out of context?

I don’t believe they found anything un toward

I believe Mr Graves is a resident in France

I urge you and others to restrict yourselves to fact.

You don’t seem to practice what you preach. You make two statements of belief and then urge others to restrict themselves to fact.

As far as I’m aware Tony Graves isn’t a member of this forum, so if you are waiting by the computer you might need to send out for some pot noodle….. what ever the circumstances of the Lancaster dig that seemed to upset so many uninformed members of this forum, it has to be said that at a crash site that has been excavated previously, it must be almost impossible to say when and what exactly happened; we both know that the French authorities were contacted, and I don’t believe they found anything un toward, I believe Mr Graves is a resident in France, and as such would think the powers at be wouldn’t have too much trouble finding him, if there were a need.

You yourself must be aware that many on this forum are easily led, especially by prominent members/ moderators (delete where applicable) and I urge you and others to restrict yourselves to fact.

I offered up the choice of descriptions I have heard used.

I’m sure the excavator will be along any minute to explain how all the recovered clothing and personal effects were left in the aircraft before the crew mysteriously vanished. My apologies then will be fulsome.

Moggy

“The controversial incident in the past was the recovery / grave robbing (delete where you feel applicable”)

Moggy do you have any hard evidence to support the “grave robbing” accusation? if not I would suggest you “delete where applicable”, as you would have no hesitation in doing so on someone else’s behalf.

In France , ‘ 18 Juin ‘ refers to General De Gaulle’s appeal of 18 June 1940 . That could be one of the reasons , and it could explain why Mr Graves made a false assumption from this , after all .

You could be right that he’s really found LJ631, since the eyewitness account mentions 5 Parachutes, which coincides with the surviving crew from that aircraft. Also LJ631 is recorded as crashing at Trevieres which is less than 2 kilometres from the church that appears in the film and is recorded in the eyewitness account – Eglise Aignerville. However, if the pilot of LJ631 is interred at Bayeux War Cemetery and all of the remaining crew survived, why are the French authorities so reluctant to give permission for a dig at the site, as if it is LJ631 it presumably cannot be a ‘war grave’? It might be possible that LJ850 crashed within close proximity on 18 June 1944 and that 5 parachutes seen could be some of the military passengers exiting the a/c in the knowledge that is their only chance of survival? There’s also a question of whether the farm on which the crash site is located was renamed ‘Ferme Du 18 Juin’ to commemorate the date of LJ850’s loss or is that just a convenient assumption that’s been made to support Mr. Graves theory that he’s found the site of LJ850? The farm could have been named ’18 Juin’ for any number of reasons? I think that Mr. Graves does need to do some more ‘digging’ in local records first rather than of the spade wielding kind.

The following is part of the piece on the NewHistorian website (q.v. original post):

‘This has been a frustrating experience for Graves, who spoke to CBC News about his desire to not just recover the wreckage but also to reclaim the remains of those that might have lost their lives in the crash. The idea that the remains of these soldiers are “laying under a field with cows trampling all over them” is unconscionable to the archaeologist, who added that it was important to him because the families of these lost soldiers could finally achieve some closure, not knowing whether their loved ones were killed in action or if they just disappeared “into the ether”‘.

In light of the Normandy Lancaster dig, I wonder whether the foregoing views were expressed without any sense of irony?

One odd thing seen here :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLEmcVir4V4

Mr Graves is seen with the eyewitness account ( Lucien Duval ) in hand , who reports that 5 airmen had bailed out before the crash . This does not match with LJ850 missing .
But maybe Mr Graves does not read French ?

Zorglub

And why do I think that he was involved in something controversial in the past?

The controversial incident in the past was the recovery / grave robbing (delete where you feel applicable) of a Lancaster crash site in Normandy where the cockpit area was excavated, lots of clothing and personal items recovered but mysteriously no trace of human remains. This can obviously be explained by the crew flying with their jackets hung up on the convenient coat hooks like any rep in his Mondeo

Moggy

Yes, that’s the past incident that was ringing bells in my memory. And that’s why I thought that he had been involved in something controversial.

Was he not something to do with a Lancaster recovery in France? Sure there is a thread on it here somewhere….

Quick search and I found it….

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?119712-Lancaster-recovery-in-Normandy&highlight=albert+chambers

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2211250/Wreckage-Lancaster-bomber-crashed-D-Day-killing-crew-identified.html

Why does the name Tony Graves ring a bell? And why do I think that he was involved in something controversial in the past? It may just be that as the years advance, my memory becomes less reliable and I’m barking up a completely inappropriate tree. Hopefully someone can shed some light in my darkness?

There is a short film with Mr Graves explaing the story. I understand that there were local witnesses that stated the aircraft swooped in around the church , hit the ground and burst into flames, I find it hard to believe that bodies were not recovered at the time especialy with so many on board . you would understand perhaps if is was a high speed near vertical impact?

Personally I find this rather strange, if Mr Graves wants to erect a memorial on the site then just do it, obviously with the landowners permission, it doesnt need to be dug first. And as for the cows, most church yards around here have a few sheep in them to keep the grass down and nobody minds, or are cows different.

Richard

The problem in this case is that Tony Graves has found remains of Stirling LJ631 , 570 Squadron , lost 24/25 August 1944 . Only pilot F/L Stanley Maunder was killed and now rests at Bayeux CWGC.
Information is available on WW2talk.com . Bad news for relatives traced in Canada .

Zorglub.