Subritzky family Vickers Vincent

Duplicates: Consider LA198 and LA255 the Nation’s duplicates

Talking with Steve Subritzky last September he suggested to me that Peter Dye was totally sold on acquiring the Vincent a few years back. “Just got to have it”, he said

It sounds like he was over-ruled by the ‘bean-counters’. 🙂

As to values, from the Nation’s point of view…the sole Vickers Vincent for a Mk 21 Spitfire, sounds to me like a more than equitable trade in the Nation’s favour.

Mark,

I would agree completely, but I also agree with Dave that this properly belongs in New Zealand

Is it no the job of the RAF Museum to preserve one of each type regardless of the personal whims of the management at the time?

Their collecting policy is on their website

I think he Sidney Cotton Electra Junior would be a far more important aircraft to trade a Spitfire for if it became available!

Hmm,

My thoughts on the Spitfire Mk.21, LA226, being discussed in this thread.

– Been in deep storage for over twenty years, out of public view at Stafford.
– Sound condition, but lacking some critical and expensive components.
– Would need a very large sum of money spent, £2M ballpark (other estimates are available), before she would see air under her wings.

With that said, would it be a good swap for the Vickers Vincent in the condition she is in today?
I think I will leave that for others to debate.

Is it no the job of the RAF Museum to preserve one of each type regardless of the personal whims of the management at the time?

Lovely idea but I doubt that has ever been a stated aim.

I believe that was their original publicly stated mandate, goodness knows what it is now!

Steve

Is it no the job of the RAF Museum to preserve one of each type regardless of the personal whims of the management at the time?

The intention was always a full restoration. There’s a lot more to the airframe than what is seen here. However policy now at the museum is no more restorations till they have gotten back the use of their new building, and they have rotated all existing aircraft that are already on display through the workshops for stripping down to ensure they are being properly conserved and any repairs and paint touch ups needed are getting done. So it will be a few years before restoration eventually returns to being a priority for the museum team.

You meant sole complete 🙂
Vildebeest for Dave by Errol Cavit, on Flickr

That has progressed quite a bit since I last saw it , how much further can they go with it ?

It is the sole Vincent Errol. The Wigram example is a Vildebeest. Virtually identical but different.

In terms of historic value to this country (New Zealand) the Vincent is far more valuable than a Mk. 21 Spitfire. The Vincent formed the backbone of New Zealand’s air defence as general reconnaissance patrol bombers hunting the German and Japanese Navy, and was also our advanced trainer (many kiwi Battle of Britain pilots trained on the DH Moth then the Vincent before heading to England and going onto Spitfires, Hurricanes and other similar types). I cannot think of a single New Zealander who flew the Mk. 21 Spitfire however. So I am glad that the RAF Museum didn’t get its hands on this piece of Kiwi history, although I feel sorry for Steve the he never got his Spitfire.

Duplicates: Consider LA198 and LA255 the Nation’s duplicates

Talking with Steve Subritzky last September he suggested to me that Peter Dye was totally sold on acquiring the Vincent a few years back. “Just got to have it”, he said

It sounds like he was over-ruled by the ‘bean-counters’. 🙂

As to values, from the Nation’s point of view…the sole Vickers Vincent for a Mk 21 Spitfire, sounds to me like a more than equitable trade in the Nation’s favour.
…
Mark

You meant sole complete 🙂
Vildebeest for Dave by Errol Cavit, on Flickr

Negotiations were at least initiated, LA226 was the proposed swap (As a duplicate – didn’t know the RAFM had another mk 21)

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/freedom_of_information/A_and_D_Meeting_summaries/October_to_December_2012_A_and_D_Committee.pdf

Duplicates: Consider LA198 and LA255 the Nation’s duplicates

Talking with Steve Subritzky last September he suggested to me that Peter Dye was totally sold on acquiring the Vincent a few years back. “Just got to have it”, he said

It sounds like he was over-ruled by the ‘bean-counters’. 🙂

As to values, from the Nation’s point of view…the sole Vickers Vincent for a Mk 21 Spitfire, sounds to me like a more than equitable trade in the Nation’s favour.

I have heard a rumour (no more than that from people who know people who know people) that someone felt it wasn’t ‘worth’ a potentially flyable Spitfire…

‘Potentially flyable’ but likely to cost £1.25m at commercial rates to get it flying.

Mark

One thing that concerns me is the assumption that the owners and restorers of these aircraft actually want to sell them to the RAFM. They are in New Zealand because the NZ Air Force flew them so why should they not be displayed in that country ?

Negotiations were at least initiated, LA226 was the proposed swap (As a duplicate – didn’t know the RAFM had another mk 21)

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/freedom_of_information/A_and_D_Meeting_summaries/October_to_December_2012_A_and_D_Committee.pdf

The value of restorable Spitfire projects has increased considerably in recent times. Value is a difficult thing to assess against another artefact however.

One assumes that as a privately owned aircraft, the Vincent will go where the money is, or, indeed, stay where it is. If the RNZAF Museum wish to display it, then they will have to purchase it in the same way that we would.

Well if that were the case then simply sell the ” potentially flyable Spitfire ” in the open market and use the money raised to purchase the restored Baffin / Vincent or what ever else RAFM consider important enough.
One thing that concerns me is the assumption that the owners and restorers of these aircraft actually want to sell them to the RAFM. They are in New Zealand because the NZ Air Force flew them so why should they not be displayed in that country ?

Off course if restored they could be loaned to RAFM in exchange for a Spitfire. Sorry forget the RAFM loan program only gives aircraft away, does not receive anything in exchange. :apologetic:

Which makes the RAFM’s stated reason for not pursuing the acquisition further all the more curious

I have heard a rumour (no more than that from people who know people who know people) that someone felt it wasn’t ‘worth’ a potentially flyable Spitfire…

What many may not realise when they see that photo of the Baffin is it was as big as the Vincent, another huge beast. And both the Vincent and Baffin made a DH89 Dragon Rapide look small.

Blackburn Baffin S1674 & NZ160 at the Subritzky facility, NZ, 10 Sept 2016.

Mark

In Errol’s first group of photos what is the aircraft in the third photo and the last ten please ?

If you click on a photo, it goes to to photo page. Scroll down to the tags at the bottom right there, and I’ve identified the aircraft (including serial(s)).

Metadata matters! 😉

DaveF86, the RNZAF sometimes resprayed interiors of their aircraft after they began to wear, in NZ made approximations of British paints. Not sure if this is original paint or a wartime NZ respray colour.

Ohope – that is the Blackburn Baffin project.

Thank you Dave , another interesting aircraft being brought back from near extinction , good news .