Sunderland W4036

Sunderland 4036

Hi Darrell
I am a native of the area and am in contact with local WW2 aircraft historians.
We realise that 4036 is a war grave and thus deserves respect. I have been informed that the first dive will be to accurately locate the wreck and identify it.
I hope to be on site during the planned dive in September as I have a cottage nearby.
Let me know if I can help in any way with local contacts, info etc.

Paddy R

Hello , I have information regarding FO Gleigs surviving brother regarding the dive possibly on the Sunderland, I have spoke to Don Gleig, he was most interested!!!!! Darrell

Sunderland 4036

Hi Steve
Its me again.
My Lough Erne contacts tell me that W 4036 has been located before.
There is a local contact Seamus Gormley who has some scan printouts which he is willing to share with you. his phone number is 02866 342702.
The scuttled Catalinas were dived on by the Portstewart section of BSAC 2 years ago. They didn’t find them but they showed me some scans of the suspected area that showed a number of anomilies. Might be worth a contact.
Please let me know if I can help in any other way.

Paddy R

Sunderland W4036

Hi Steve

Thought you might be interested in another Lough Erne war grave.
This memorial is at Castle Archdale. Killadeas was the Operational Training Unit nearby

Paddy R

Thanks James

It is a designated war grave, we are allowed to locate the aircraft and confirm its identity. Penetration on this expedition is not one of our aims. It’s a dangerous and complex procedure, especially in view of the depth that this lies in (about 150ft) and requires us to do a detailed inspection of the superstructure, entry/exit points and do a detailed risk assessment prior to formulating a plan for entry.

Once we have identified it as being W4036 we will then apply to MOD for permission at a future expedition to attempt recovery of the bodies. F/L Dolphins family have specifically asked for us to recover his body for them, but at the initial expedition it isn’t an option.

‘m in charge of the diving side of the expedition, with one of my other colleagues responsible for the sonar scanning and underwater videography. Above the surface the ITV filmcrew will be videoing my briefings to the team, the preparation of equipment etc, and compiling the historic information to make a really interesting documentary.

We already have some information, but are not experts on historic wartime aircraft. It is enthusiasts like yourselves who will hopefully be able to fill in the gaps.

Steve

Or the Sandringham in southampton…..:)

Or even the Sunderland in the AirSpace building at IWM Duxford! 😀

Pinnace was the term used by marine aircraft crews for the (I think) general duties boat that monitored and assisted with operations. This would differentiate between it, and say, the ‘crash boat’ (which might be a pinnace with special equipment aboard) the bomb scow or the refuelling barge. In period terms, it was being used like a runway controller’s van in landplane ops, while in modern terms it would equate to the control tower.

I’d also agree with everything Pondskater’s said, and would highly recommend a ‘walk-through’ of a preserved Sunderland first – it’s a complex aircraft, even before being damaged and sunk!

Perhaps you could tell us what you have and haven’t done, read and considered, and more relivent help could be made available? For instance, if the two crew’s remains were aboard, it would (I presume) be a war grave, and thus you need appropriate permission to visit the site. Not my area of knowledge, however.

HTH

[I]Here is a transcript of a letter sent by F/O Gleig who was on the aircraft when it crashed.

I’m not too sure about the word Pinnace as it was difficult to make out the letters in his handwriting

Steve,

Welcome to the forum – and thanks for posting that. Very moving. So many aircraft were lost that it is easy to count the statistics. But behind every one there is a personal tale such as this that should be remembered.
Pinnace seems correct in both cases.
I’ve spoken to many who said that glossy (or sometimes glassy) water landings were very hazardous – a flat surface meant the pilot would see through the water and sometimes only see the bottom of the lake, making judging height very hard. Even more so at night.

W4036 was one of the first MkIII Sunderlands, built in Rochester and delivered to 201 squadron in July 42 where she stayed until the accident.
Good luck with the search – I’d be happy to help with more info if I can.

Allan

Here is a transcript of a letter sent by F/O Gleig who was on the aircraft when it crashed.

I’m not too sure about the word Pinnace as it was difficult to make out the letters in his handwritingNov 24th/1945

Dear Mr Dolphin

It is strange indeed that I should hear from you today. Last night I had a dream & in it I was looking over Dougs scrap book & snap album again. I saw his snaps taken at Elementary & Service Flying School. The Middle East & Castle Archdale.

I recall in the dream how much I wished I had kept such a collection of momento’s. The reason I did not was due to the feeling I had throughout my service career that I might not return & would avoid such a collection being received by my wife & son.

Yes mr Dolphin, I was a member of Dougs crew from OTU in Scotland, right up until the night of his death.

I learned to know him as a fine big youngster with the keenest of blue eyes. Good at billiards & snooker & especially good at Push penny, a game I used to play quite often with him in the mess.

I could never beat him!

As a Captain he was superb. Fully confident & capable & one who gained the respect & admiration of all the members of his crew. His flying was perfect & his knowledge of all grades of aircrew trades extraordinary.

Night landings were just as routine as day landings with Doug at the controls. Never a bump or a bounce. We were always waterborne before we knew it.

Just prior to our accident we had been grounded for a week or so due to maintenance on our own aircraft. Then the inevitable circuits & bumps by night program came out with our names on it. It called for F/L Dolphin & skeleton crew of five.

Doug was to give instruction to two junior Captain pilots in take offs & landings.

Doug asked me to be one of the five crewmembers & I was proud that he thought my services were necessary. We were not familiar with the other two pilots – they had just arrived from OTU.

The other crew members besides Doug & myself were Dave Parry – Airgunman, Taffy Ford & Bill Cummings 1st & second engineers, Johnny Green & myself W.A.G.

The lough was glossy calm that night which makes it very difficult to land. Only by watching the instruments can the pilot hope to make a good landing.

Doug did the first couple of circuits and each time his take off & landing was perfect. He then instructed one of the other pilots to take over whilst he sat in the second pilots seat. My position was on the wireless set except before take offs & landings when I would flash the Pinnace in charge of the flare path by aldis lamp to get permission to take of & land.

A blackout curtain separated my position from that of the pilots so I did not see either Doug or the other two pilots after take off. Green & Parry stayed below decks in the ward room after the initial take off.

The other pilot took off OK, & I could hear Doug giving him instruction in landing technique over the intercom during our approach to land. The pilot seemed to be coming in left wing low & I remember I looked out of the astra dome and saw the 1st flare path light disappearing under our wing. Doug told him to gun the throttle & pull her up & once again we made the circuit only to follow the same procedure. The third time we seemed to be coming in nice & level. I could see the visual horizon from the astra dome. When up came the nose and then down with a crash!

It all happened so sudden I don’t think any of us knew just what was happening, except the pilot flying the aircraft. No word was spoken over the intercom.

I found myself flat on my back on the deck being crushed between the wireless and navigators tables. The water came in fast and I could see my way out through the astra dome above my head, if the metal would even release me. I prayed like I’d never prayed before. Then all of a sudden I found myself free and able to fight the astra dome catches off and remove the dome. I slid right into the water followed by the two engineers. The other two pilots escaped through the pilots window just as the aircraft disappeared 45 seconds after the crash.

I looked around for Doug & the other boys Johnny & Dave but could not see them & right up until the dinghy picked us up I kept expecting to see their heads come popping to the surface. Reluctantly we were taken away for the shore leaving the Pinnace & its crew to continue the search. Somehow I think that Doug was either knocked out unconscious or attempted to get back to myself & the other boys. Knowing Doug I know that his own safety would be his last thought.

It was just like losing a brother to lose Doug and my deepest sympathy go out to Mrs Dolphin & yourself as well as his lovely wife. He loved you all so much & was as proud as could be of you all.

Outside of the above I have little to add. I suffered only a fractured nose and badly bruised ribs & arm. I recovered back to flying health within five weeks. I did not write you Mr Dolphin because I just didn’t know where to start & Glen Ferguson our regular 2nd pilot said he would write.

I trust that this will help you in your determined effort to find Dougs body & that you get the satisfaction & peace of mind from out of your trip to Castle Archdale this summer

God Bless you

Yours sincerely

Tommy Gleig

If your shows’ budget allows it, a trip down to the Sunderland in exhibit at the Hendon Museum would be nice to get a feel for the massive size of the Sunderland (I’ve been on the Sunderland at Kermit Week’s eshibit in FL).

Or the Sandringham in southampton…..:)

On this expedition we will only be looking for the Sunderland & the Catalina’s.

We will also be scanning the lough for other signs of wrecks to be explored on subsequent expeditions possbly.

We are planning to go to Corsica on a future expedition to go and locate some of the crashed aircraft there as well.

Apart from the Sunderland and maybe the Catalina’s what other aircraft do you have in mind?

hi Paddy

We’re there 22-29 Sept, my colleague has met the guy who was there when they were scuttled, but we’d like to meet him again so he can confirm the area so we can narrow down the search.

Sunderland W4036

Hi Steve
Glad to hear you will be looking for those Catalinas as well. There is still an ex RAF guy living over there who helped to sink them. I could put you in touch if necessary I could also get in touch with the last guys to dive on the site. I would really like to know when you plan to dive. Have you any idea of a programme yet?

Paddy R

If your shows’ budget allows it, a trip down to the Sunderland in exhibit at the Hendon Museum would be nice to get a feel for the massive size of the Sunderland (I’ve been on the Sunderland at Kermit Week’s eshibit in FL).

I wish you luck with your expedition! Be Safe.

Hi Paddy

We’re also going to be looking for the Catalina’s we have some pretty high tech equipment, towfish dual trace sonar, and a magnetometer, and we believe we already know the whereabouts of the Sunderland. We’re used to diving in very low visibility conditions, and unless the water itself is very turbid, it’s generally the divers themselves who disturb the silt through poor finning techniques. We will visit the museum as it would also be of interest.

Ross,

Thanks for the info, it may be that some of the information is not quite correct. Its F/O Gleig, and from a letter he wrote to Mr Dolphin Snr, (copy of which I’ll type up and post a transcript) it states that the aircraft belly flopped onto the water, and didn’t dig the wing in as commonly thought.

Do you know who the newly qualified pilot was who crashed the aircraft, it certainly wasn’t Dolphin

Steve

Sunderlands on Lough Erne

Hi Steve
I come from that area and I now have a cottage near the old Castle Archdale site.
2 years ago I met some divers trying to locate some Catalinas that we know were sunk in the lough after ww2. The told me it was virtually impossible to see in the fresh water because of dense silt on the bottom so I wish you luck.
I am in the area a lot and have a few contacts there so I will follow your quest with interest. There is a small ww2 museum on site which may provide further clues.
Please let me know if you think I can help in any way.

Paddy R

Good morning Steve and welcome to the Forum!:) Note that you get your answer in 37 minutes!

Hi,

No.201 Sqn

Coded W

F/L D J Dolphin RCAF
F/O D H Longland (Safe)
F/O Gleigh (sp?) (Injured)
Sgt C V Ford (Injured)
F/O M Alexander (Safe)
Sgt J B Green
Sgt E Parry
Sgt J B Cumings

Took off to practice night landings but overshot the flare path, wing dug in and crashed at 21:55 hrs. Sgt Parry is buried in Mold Cemetery, Flintshire, while F/L Dolphin and Sgt Green are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.

Regards
Ross