Sunderlands on Windermere

Allan,
Yep – that was it. Next time I’m up visiting, I’m bringing the stirrup pump!!!

Hi Bob,

That’ll probably be this cutting from the Westmorland Gazette then.

Same story linked from the book launch. There will always be people who believe something enough to phone in to local radio and say so, but if anybody has any actual evidence then I would like to hear it. So far all the evidence leans very strongly against there being aircraft there with nothing for, and now, having found a source for the rumour, I don’t think we’d get funding to drain the lake.

Mind you a police inspector once told me that draining the lake would mean years of paperwork for him with all the stuff that would turn up.

Allan

I’m just back from the in-laws in the Lakes and was shown a local newspaper article about this topic which had pretty much concluded there was nothing there. But the father-in-law then said there was someone on the local radio (a phone-in I think) claiming there was!

Anyone know where the plug for Windemere is?…

Mark, a good, succinct summary of the events. There were other incidents too. He was involved in a BBC programme searching for aircraft in Windermere which proved fruitless as his claims became more vague. I did speak to him by phone about the fake sonar image but alarms rang when he said that with the image he could get support to find the aircraft. He didn’t seem to recognise that having the image would mean it had been found – unless the image was false. Anyway, I stepped back from it after that.

I haven’t yet got round to ordering a copy of that aircraft movement card from the RAF Museum. It would be interesting to see if the word “scuttled” is on it, but ultimately it is the aircraft that I’m researching. As you say, very weird, and very sad.

Ok, a bit more on Windermere:
There is nothing in the archives to support aircraft sunk in the lake, and at least two teams of divers have searched the lake. However, if somebody wants to play with a sonar or other techniques, then I can point them to the moorings in White Cross Bay and then you can look on the other side of the lake and tell me how many other Sunderland moorings there are on Windermere. I’d like to know. Surely a Sunderland mooring is heavier than a yacht mooring.

The debate about allowing the Windermere factory to be built only for the duration fo the war is a long and fascinating story full of conflicts and contradictions – worth reading (but then I’m biased!) It wasn’t quite returned to nature. The factory closed in 45 and was dismantled in 49. The foundations and roadways were not removed, and the road layout at the caravan site follows the factory layout.

Oh, and there is a small error in the report of U-387. It was damaged but not sunk by EJ155 and I was able to find a copy of the U-boat log book for that long evening.

Windermere Sunderlands

Whilst I know not of wot you have been discussing, the following extract from ‘Flying Boats on Windermere’ may help?

‘Windermere factory built on eastern side of shore approx 2 miles south of Ambleside, opened 1942 manufacturing Sunderland MkIII, qty 35 built, two batches DP176 – 200 & EJ149 – 158, EJ150 sank U107 and another finished off U387. A few RAF Catalinas and other flying boats came in for repair & maintenance. When factory closed in 1944 it was completely dismantled.
Everything had to returned to nature as this was the undertaking given when it was built, despite many local people needing the work that could have continued. Extremely unlikely that any debris – sunk or otherwise would have been allowed. The Southampton Sunderland visited Windermere in 1990 on the way to the museum, giving pleasure flights at £4.50.

These are extracts from ‘Lakeland Aviation and Airfields’ Ken Davies, Regional publications 2001.

Hope this is of some use!

Cheers Brian.

wl745 Side Scan Sonar

——————————————————————————–
The American company “Humminbird “have an affordable side scan sonar on the market !Good for wreckology!

Good idea to check if there’s something there first.

In this case, there isn’t. 😉

Yes, if theres nothing there, “far better and cheaper results” are achieved with a digital camera, model airfix kit, and negative feature of photo shop, than buying a side scanner and spending time on or in the water (as a father and son had done at Windermere) , as shown by some of the “other” media releases and “claims” about sunken aircraft.

The “expert” I referred to above, made a number of “wild” claims and had such images on his own website, suggesting he was involved in the charade far more than just being a believer in them.

His involvement in providing diving, videoing and scanning services, his own direct claims of discoveries and earlier recoveries, and other strange activities in forums including using multiple identities to cross support and promote himself would suggest anything was possible, particularly as many of these supicious scan images were released on his own website.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27408&highlight=sunderland+lake

The multiple Identities progressed to “Allison” here on KP itself, a “female” diver who also sought support for recovery operations, was a close “admirer” of the “expert” and also had found a scuttled Sunderland.

4th July 2006, 18:13
Allison Johnson
Rank 4 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dishforth, N Yorkshire
Posts: 425

I have the movement card of a Mk II that was scuttled in Lough Erne in N Ireland. It quite clearly says “Scuttled” on it. If the scuttled bit is faked then the microfiche at Hendon has been tampered with. Anyone interested in going over there to try and look for it? I’m a diver and have access to a sonar unit.

Ali

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=59765&highlight=dive+recovery

Not surprisingly “Allison” has not posted in KP for over 2 years, ie before the death of the gentleman concerned. Photos of Allison skydiving shown in this forum by herself, were shown elsewhere by the “expert” as him with his skydiving instructor in the USA??

Being exposed for running multiple identities (including admiring females) on his own dive forum was eventually linked to his sad demise.

His claims of the intact glass/bomber nosed Me-262, Ar234 and Me163 found in a European lake near Rechlin airfield still sit in a thread somewhere here in the KP archives, over in WIX and the vintage-and-warbirds yahoo group, unfortunately the submerged Spitfire Seaplane thread in which he detailed his own discovery of the wreck was deleted by a KP Mod, both were advertised as recovery/restoration project opportunities on Barnstormers.

These were the most significant “promotions” for the use of side scanners for the location and recovery of aircraft wrecks, and the field has gone strangely quiet with his demise?

All very strange, and a very sad ending to the whole weird saga.

regards

Mark Pilkington

The American company “Humminbird “have an affordable side scan sonar on the market !Good for wreckology!

Good idea to check if there’s something there first.

In this case, there isn’t. 😉

Side Scan Sonar

The American company “Humminbird “have an affordable side scan sonar on the market !Good for wreckology!

Who was that handsome man, 😀 and what an interesting looking book! Nice ‘catch’ by author and forumite there…

James, the handsome man would be Bill Harrison who used to work at the factory, and broke up scrapped Sunderlands with a fire axe. As for the author . . .

And indeed proof that spending time on the forum is never wasted. Imagine the conversation:
“How did you find your publisher?”
“I met him in an internet chat room.”
Reactions are such fun. But seriously, I’m very happy with what they’ve done with my efforts and we’re even outselling Wilbur Smith at the local Waterstones:D

The exhibition is at the Brockhole National Park Centre all summer. Put together by my friend, artist Trevor Avery, it tells the story of the Short Brothers Windermere factory, Calgarth village which housed the workers, and the use of hostels at the village to house Jewish refugee children post war. Trevor has used some of the photos and info from the new book and added work from his own project on the village + the refugees. It is well worth a visit if you are in the area.

? Oh thats surprising, given the quality and confidence of the original expert who discovered them???, I mean there were conclusive side scans that proved they were there!!!

snip

I was an open skeptic of this gentleman’s claims as were most others, and it seemed clear he was living in a Walter Mitty world of his own.

but on a more sober note I understand he passed away in very very sad circumstances, and certainly he and his family paid far too high a price for his silly antics.

Mark, yes, the story of the side scan sonar image was an ultimately tragic one. As far as I know, the gentleman did not create the image, but he did believe it. A very sad tale.

But the story of aircraft in the lake has been around for a long time before that, which is why I applied myself to proving it and identifying the aircraft. It took me a little while to realise what a dead end it was but, with a little luck, I traced how the rumour started, which was the point behind the TV interviews yesterday.

It didn’t come over in the clip, but I told them that I’m 100% certain there is no Sunderland in Windermere.

Now, I must get on and find that Spitfire.

Allan
For Key Forums
beside the lake, beneath the trees . . .

Lake flying boat rumours scuttled

? Oh thats surprising, given the quality and confidence of the original expert who discovered them???, I mean there were conclusive side scans that proved they were there!!!

Still, there is always the Spitfire Float plane, he had positively identified that one from running his hand along the float, so it must be still there!!

and then there’s always the glass nose Me-262 he located in a lake in Europe, and advertised for recovery on barnstormers.

Those were the days.

I was an open skeptic of this gentleman’s claims as were most others, and it seemed clear he was living in a Walter Mitty world of his own.

but on a more sober note I understand he passed away in very very sad circumstances, and certainly he and his family paid far too high a price for his silly antics.

(for those who dont know the background to the above comments, I’m not referring to the author in the bbc clip or the recent book that JDK refers to)

Mark Pilkington

Who was that handsome man, 😀 and what an interesting looking book! Nice ‘catch’ by author and forumite there…

Cof cof…

http://mmpbooks.biz/books/w9107/w9107p.htm

Suspect the exhibition would be worth a gander too. Over to our man on the lake…

I should add that this form had a role in bringing featured author and publisher (me) together. So there you go.

Nice one!