Supermarine Rolls Royce S6

At replica S6.B is with the Planes of Fame Museum at Chino, this is the one that was at Thorpe Park and may be the one from the Museum of Flying which is closed at present.

http://www.planesoffame.org/aircraft.php

After the ’31 contest Lady Houston laid claim to the aircraft, which is not unreasonable given that she donated 100,000 quid to get them built. The Government siad no, presumably on the grounds of security – a weak argument that they used to censor the papers presented by Mitchell and Wilkinson after the ’27 contest. Its nice to think that she may have got hold of S1596 later and its sitting in an old lock-up somewhere, but I guess it was scrapped. Perhaps the more interesting question is why did N248 survive?

Cheers

SM

So what did happen to the original S1596?

Also intersting that N248 is in such good condition after all this time – especially considering it sank and was raised again!

Colin thinks it is in Santa Monica, California! see link:

http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/specs/supermar/sup-s6b.htm

So what did happen to the original S1596?

Also intersting that N248 is in such good condition after all this time – especially considering it sank and was raised again!

I remember seeing the S6 displayed on Soton pier in in the early 60’s. Was there another airfraft there at the same time, seem to remember there might have been but cannot remember type.

Planemike………

Don’t believe there was another plane, there wouldn’t have been room!

424 ATC Sqn. started with the Fairey Gyrodyne and when the R.J. Mitchell Museum opened, collected the S.6 and the Spitfire as well.

I remember seeing the S6 displayed on Soton pier in in the early 60’s. Was there another airfraft there at the same time, seem to remember there might have been but cannot remember type.

Planemike………

From Les Hunt’s “Veteran & Vintage Aircraft” Fairey Gyrodyne XJ389/G-AJJP was with 424 ATC Sqdn, near the Civic Centre.

Roger Smith.

I remember seeing the S6 displayed on Soton pier in in the early 60’s. Was there another airfraft there at the same time, seem to remember there might have been but cannot remember type.

Planemike………

Cees,

Yes indeed, I’d missed that.

The thin wing at the top is on one of two gliders, probably Slingsby, that were suspended behind the S6.

Anyone know what else was displayed there?

Cheers

SM

Richard and Mark

N248, either disguised as S1596 or otherwise, has certainly been around.

Yes, she was at the Festival of Britain in the Power and Production pavilion and also yanked up the pylon in undignified fashion at the Goodwood Festival of Speed a couple of years back.

Cheers

SM

Looks like DH88 Comet G-ACSS was also “flying” in formation

Cheers

Cees

Richard,

The order of paint on the floats of S1595 is white/grey primer, bright blue paint, darker blue paint. So it is reasonable to assume that the bright blue is orginal Supermarine paintwork. Its very hard to assess colours from B&W photos as you know but I believe that Supermarine used this colour in both ’29 and ’31 on the S6 and S6b but probably used a lighter tone on the S5 in ’27. The colour Solent Sky have used on N248 looks about right to me.

My memory, as a nine yeear old on a school trip, is that N248 was at the landward end of the pier near the ticket office, under cover for sure but still open to the air. (We took a boat trip down Southampton Water and saw the SR Princess in her cocoon too, I wonder what we suppossed to be doing?

I also read somewhere that the aircraft had been presented to Southampton City Council and I think thay they owned her up to the time the Mitchell Memorial Museum was opened in the old scout huts.

Cheers

SM

It’s interesting to hear of ‘S1596’ (N248) having been on public display (?) on a pier in Southampton in the mid ’60s – do you know of any photos of her at that location? Was she actually ‘on’ the deck of the pier or (heaven forbid!) was she moored up ? Who were the owners at that time ?

The S6 was displayed on the deck of the Royal Pier Southampton under cover and well away from any salt affects. I believe Southampton City Council were the custodians at the time.

Richard,

A dilema indeed.

N248 was given a thorough structural check before they decided to allow her up the pylon and she turned out to be in fine shape, with only slight corosion in the floats. Quite remarkable for an aircraft designed for just a few hours of flight. In addition to all the visits to Horse Guards, Heathrow and so in the ’40s and ’50s she also spent several years on a pier in Southampton, Royal Pier I think. That’s where I first saw her and fell in love as a school kid, 1964 I think…………………………….etc.
SM

I agree with you Ralph, it’s a dilema that will continue for quite some foreseeable future I’m quite sure.

It’s interesting to hear of ‘S1596’ (N248) having been on public display (?) on a pier in Southampton in the mid ’60s – do you know of any photos of her at that location? Was she actually ‘on’ the deck of the pier or (heaven forbid!) was she moored up ? Who were the owners at that time ?

As she was still ‘painted up’ as S1596 at the time of her static display on Horseguards Parade in September 1968 – who owned her then – ? on loan to the RAF or what ?

Your shots of the float on ‘S1595’ and the current cockpit on ‘N248’ are quite revealing. If the bright blue paint still visible around the rivets on the Science Museum example is not original then, as you say, when was it applied ! What actually is ‘Supermarine Blue’ – do you know of a current example of an aircraft sporting that ‘true’ blue ?

I don’t think I need to make further observations about the current application of unauthentic ‘dayglo green’ to the cockpit of the ‘Solent Sky’ machine, suffice to simply say “I suppose it’s doing the job it was intended to do – helping to deter any potential ravages of the weather whenever she is exposed to it.

Being a bit of a ‘purist’ myself, when it comes to authenticity issues surrounding preserved examples of our aviation heritage, I must say I rather tend to cringe when I see such practices – but, as I’ve said before, I will always refrain from direct or implied criticism for the reasons I’ve given already. There is usually a very sound reason behind most decisions made by owners / operators and only they are fully aware of the circumstances that drove that decision forward.

Again, I willingly throw this open to discussion and constructive observations.

Cheers

Richard

Richard,

A dilema indeed.

N248 was given a thorough structural check before they decided to allow her up the pylon and she turned out to be in fine shape, with only slight corosion in the floats. Quite remarkable for an aircraft designed for just a few hours of flight. In addition to all the visits to Horse Guards, Heathrow and so in the ’40s and ’50s she also spent several years on a pier in Southampton, Royal Pier I think. That’s where I first saw her and fell in love as a school kid, 1964 I think.

It is interesting to compare the approach taken by the Science Museum with S1595 and that of Solent Sky with N248. S1595 has hardly been touched since the museum got her in ’32 but they are now engaged in trying to clean her up a bit. They wish to retain as much original finish as possible but the paintwork is flaking badly, mainly because it has been applied to the fuselage. directly, no primer. I have my doubts about this paint, it is very dark and not what we normally think of as Supermarine blue, and the museum believe it may be bog standard RAF blue. If so why was it used, and who applied it? So they have an bit of an issue; they can restore the lost paint areas with a matching dark blue, but knowing that this is probably not true to the colour applied by Supermarine, or repaint in more authentic colour. Of course the second choice is not really open to them. N248 had been repainted several times over the years so preserving original paint was never an issue, and the restoration in the ’80s was sympathetic to the original scheme. The current external paint job is also good but the dayglo green interior is nasty in the extreme. I would have thought that good weatherproofing could have been acheived without resorting to such outlandish colours.

Two photos attached. The rear of S1595s float, showing the original Supermarine blue showing through, and the interior of N248 showing nasty green

Cheers

SM

Richard,

You are absolutely right, Transport Pavilion it was, the sloping windows are quite distinctive.

While I applaud Solent Sky for their efforts to raise funds I really do not like the way they are treating N248. Allowing it to be moved outside the museum and exhibited elsewhere is fine but I think they have gone a bit too far. To make her weatherproof shes had her interior painted with a nasty green gloss and the cockpit is sealed up. I know she has been repainted many times over the years but previous paintwork looked more authentic.

Cheers

SM

Thanks Ralph for confirming my theory about the Pavilion – yes the sloping glass frontage was quite a good clue for me.

Re your other observations on the current state of preservation and public display – who can justifiably argue otherwise !

Having been personally involved in the past with efforts to preserve and publicly display ‘historic’ aircraft I am never going to put myself in a position of unduly judging or publicly criticising any organisation, whether nationally owned and funded or publicly financed through donor contributions of any kind.

So many factors surround every decision that is made by the owners / custodians of such historically important pieces of our heritage – most of which are never made known to the general public, for whatever reason.

The obtaining of sufficient funding will always be a major contributory factor when it comes to such decision making. It is never an easy task, as has been well demonstrated over time by the ongoing efforts of the undaunted team responsible for return of the Vulcan to the Skies (XH558).

Nobody who is genuinely interested in securing the safe future of any such examples of our aviation past would ever “like” to see them displayed out in the open and subjected to the rigours of the British weather (or wherever), nor would they be readily willing to subject them to unnecessary risks in order for the general public to be able to view them more easily.

I suppose as long as the people who make these difficult judgement calls ensure they are in a position to reduce/minimise these risk factors by insisting on rigorous safety precautions being implemented in any agreement with a third party, when it comes to removal/transportation and display away from ‘base’, there will inevitably be a continuance of this ‘risky’ practice so long as there is a justifiable case put forward.

That is my own person viewpoint – whether others reading this will agree I don’t know, but I am always very happy to listen to others’ point of view if they should decide to make them publicly known. I don’t have an opinion ‘set in stone’ as it were – I’d really value constructive comment.

Cheers

Richard

Richard,

You are absolutely right, Transport Pavilion it was, the sloping windows are quite distinctive.

While I applaud Solent Sky for their efforts to raise funds I really do not like the way they are treating N248. Allowing it to be moved outside the museum and exhibited elsewhere is fine but I think they have gone a bit too far. To make her weatherproof shes had her interior painted with a nasty green gloss and the cockpit is sealed up. I know she has been repainted many times over the years but previous paintwork looked more authentic.

Cheers

SM

and also yanked up the pylon in undignified fashion at the Goodwood Festival of Speed a couple of years back.

Cheers

SM

Like this!

Septic.
[/QUOTE]

YES I REMEMBER IT WELL GARY !!!

I remember it caused a bit of controversy back in 2004 on this Forum as per previously posted link http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27993&highlight=Supermarine+S6

As Ralph (‘Schneiderman’) has already remarked – “She’s certainly been around” – let’s pray nothing nasty befalls this aircraft if any future attempt is ever made to display her in an ‘unusual’ manner. She’s too valuable a piece of British Aviation history to take any undue risks, such as (“in my own humble opinion”) she has been subjected to on certain occasions in the post WW2 years.

Richard

and also yanked up the pylon in undignified fashion at the Goodwood Festival of Speed a couple of years back.

Cheers

SM[/QUOTE]

Like this!

Septic.

Richard and Mark

N248, either disguised as S1596 or otherwise, has certainly been around.

Yes, she was at the Festival of Britain in the Power and Production pavilion and also yanked up the pylon in undignified fashion at the Goodwood Festival of Speed a couple of years back.

Cheers

SM

Ralph – from the photo you’ve posted I believe you’ll find that the aircraft was actually on display in the ‘Transport Pavillion’ and not the ‘Power & Production’ building.

From the link I posted earlier you will see other photos depicting the large glass fronted ‘Transport Pavillion’ visible in your photo. http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/archive/exhibits/festival/list_details.asp?key=546983&rtn=ob%3Dphotograph%26ob_s%3Dany%26pr%3D%26pr_s%3Dany%26de%3D%26de_s%3Dany%26num%3D10%26firstob%3D41%26sortby%3D1

Richard

Richard and Mark

N248, either disguised as S1596 or otherwise, has certainly been around.

Yes, she was at the Festival of Britain in the Power and Production pavilion and also yanked up the pylon in undignified fashion at the Goodwood Festival of Speed a couple of years back.

Cheers

SM

I think I have a shot somewhere, not taken by me but acquired in the 1960’s, of one of the Racers suspended inside at the ‘Festival of Britain’ in 1951.

Is it my imagination?

Mark

I don’t think your memory’s playing tricks ‘Mark’ –

I believe this is ‘S1596’ in 1951 being “lowered into position during the development of the Transport Pavilion in the South Bank Exhibition, part of the Festival of Britain”
http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/archive/exhibits/festival/list_details.asp?key=546983&rtn=ob%3Dphotograph%26ob_s%3Dany%26pr%3D%26pr_s%3Dany%26de%3D%26de_s%3Dany%26num%3D10%26firstob%3D41%26sortby%3D1

Richard