Supermarine Seagull III

[As can be seen, there’s often confusion over whether the inter-war British naval air arm was properly RN or RAF. I defer to those better able to comment.

Thanks James – confusion indeed! This has been an interesting discussion guys, opening up some unknowns, and I think that we can now be satisfied that the Seagulls between 1923 and 1927 were RAF aircraft.

But – it has not solved my initial query on the identity of the 3 x RAF machines shipped to Oz. :confused:

Many thanks all, and a Merry Christmas.

So it would appear they were RAF. Perhaps the Brits were like the Australians, aircraft operated by the RAF/RAAF from HMS/HMAS ships? Both sources refer to “RAF” aircraft.

On 1 April 1924, the Fleet Air Arm of the Royal Air Force was formed, encompassing those RAF units that normally embarked on aircraft carriers and fighting ships.[4] On 24 May 1939 the Fleet Air Arm was returned to Admiralty control[5] under the “Inskip Award” (named after the Minister for Co-ordination of Defence who was overseeing Britain’s re-armament programme)and renamed the Air Branch of the Royal Navy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleet_Air_Arm

On the 1st April 1918, the RN once again lost its Air Service, the Royal Navy and Army air wings were merged once again, this time to form the Royal Air Force (RAF).

In 1918, when the Great War ended, this service was the largest air force in the world, with over 126 coastal air stations.

The RAF starved the Royal Navy’s Fleet air arm through the diversion of scarce resources to its own requirements throughout the 1920-30s. This was not a very satisfactory arrangement and in 1924 the Admiralty introduced the title of ‘Fleet Air Arm’.However, with war looming, the RN in 1937 successfully argued the revision of the Service to full Admiralty control as the Fleet Air Arm.

The History of the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm

In 1937, The Naval Air Branch, later known as the Fleet Air Arm, was returned eventually to Admiralty control.

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/History/Index.htm

As can be seen, there’s often confusion over whether the inter-war British naval air arm was properly RN or RAF. I defer to those better able to comment.

LOL wieesso, history repeats itself!
Reminds me of a more recent deal. In 1994, we bought 15 F-111Gs from the USAF boneyard to extend the LOT of the F-111C. 15 were initially assessed as: 13 could be prep’d for flight delivery to Aus, and 2 would be shipped for spares. “However, they were found to be in such excellent condition that they were re-erected and quickly put into service.” Yes, all 15 were flown out, and rotated through service until ‘G’ WFS c2008-ish; the F-111C was WFS in Dec 2010.

🙂

from http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=43979

“…were acquired at the scrap price of 100 pounds each and were intended to be used as a spares pool. However, they were found to be in such excellent condition that they were re-erected and quickly put into service.

LOL wieesso, history repeats itself!
Reminds me of a more recent deal. In 1994, we bought 15 F-111Gs from the USAF boneyard to extend the LOT of the F-111C. 15 were initially assessed as: 13 could be prep’d for flight delivery to Aus, and 2 would be shipped for spares. “However, they were found to be in such excellent condition that they were re-erected and quickly put into service.” Yes, all 15 were flown out, and rotated through service until ‘G’ WFS c2008-ish; the F-111C was WFS in Dec 2010.

from http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=43979

“…with the addition of three ex-RAF Seagull II amphibians, continued on up North for a survey of Papua New Guinea. Interestingly, the three RAF Seagulls, engineless, were acquired at the scrap price of 100 pounds each and were intended to be used as a spares pool. However, they were found to be in such excellent condition that they were re-erected and quickly put into service. The only difference between the Seagull II and Seagull III was the larger radiator in the latter.”

As RN aircraft, the Seagulls don’t appear in either edition.

Thank you Don. I have always been confused about the UK operators of these aircraft. I thought they were RN FAA, but…

Putnam’s Supermarine Aircraft (Andrews & Mprgan), very authoratative you would think, states: [pg.74] “The first production Seagulls were chosen to form 440 (RAF) Fleet Reconnaissance Flight in 1923…”; [pg.78] “The Australian Seagull IIIs were identical to the RAF Mk II version…”.

Also British Military Aircraft Serials 1878-1987 (Bruce Robertson), also authoratative, states: [pg.106] “N9562-N9566 Seagull II First postwar flying boat for the RAF”.

So it would appear they were RAF. Perhaps the Brits were like the Australians, aircraft operated by the RAF/RAAF from HMS/HMAS ships? Both sources refer to “RAF” aircraft.

I’ll let you have the full Flypast quote in due course, and I’ll bear it in mind as I gather Seagull V stuff. Who knows…

Thanks James, I do have Flypast (great reference).

Hmmm, clearly it’s a tricky one! Maybe tackle to from the other end, wonder what the RN / RAF / Air Min have regarding the aircraft being struck off? The risk of the gap from SOC in Britain to TOC by the RAAF might mean no notes, but as you’ve clearly exhausted other routes…

I’ll let you have the full Flypast quote in due course, and I’ll bear it in mind as I gather Seagull V stuff. Who knows…

The ADF Serials website doesn’t answer that (I presume you’d checked there?)
Flypast by Parnell & Boughton mentions that in Aug 26 the RAAF Liaison Officer at the (England) Air Min advised that 14 Seagulls were available for disposal plus spares, three were stated as being new having never flown – I guess that’s the ones that were taken!

Many thanks JDK. I am researching this for adf serials, and have had no luck at either RAAFM or the Nowra museum (was ANAM back then).

The quote of “14 Seagulls” being available is interesting – but see my listings of RAF Seagull IIs and IIIs. There were only 13 RAF IIIs in total (N9642-N9654 and two went to UK civil reg). Therefore, that 14 total must have comprised some Mk IIs. Follow my thinking?

I don’t have Air Britain “N series”, but from memory I don’t think that threw any light on this little riddle! :rolleyes:

The ADF Serials website doesn’t answer that (I presume you’d checked there?) and a quick look at Ray Jones’ excellent Seagulls Cruisers & Catapults just mentions the new RAAF serials and “…the Air Board had bought three more airworthy Seagulls in 1926 at little more than scrap value. … The Seagulls were so cheap because the the Admiralty had completely lost interest in the boat-hulled amphibian as a class…”

I’ll have a further look through.

Flypast by Parnell & Boughton mentions that in Aug 26 the RAAF Liaison Officer at the (England) Air Min advised that 14 Seagulls were available for disposal plus spares, three were stated as being new having never flown – I guess that’s the ones that were taken! There’s a bit more detail, no serials. Later, at the point the type’s replacement was under consideration, Supermarine offered ‘two boat amphibians’ with Panther engines (2 May 1930), but the offer after consider ation was declined, and two replacement Seagulls was considered from Felixtowe’s MES was approved by the Air Board, but there were no funds to buy them!

If you drop me a PM, I’ll see if I can find anything in the RAAF Museum archive, but I won’t be visiting until later in January, for obvious (summer holiday) reasons.

Regards,

Batman,
www.adf-serials.com list them as Mark III’s.
Macca

Yes Macca, but it doesn’t give the RAF serials. And I am contending, that if it was just a “simple radiator mod”, then perhaps they could have been Mk IIs in RAF service, modded prior to shipping to Australia – they would then be Mk IIIs.

Batman,

www.adf-serials.com list them as Mark III’s.

Macca