Surviving DH Gipsy "pre-war" Engines in the UK

@Mark_Pilkington ;-

     Although the Q30 & Q70 etc were designed during the war, they didn’t hit the market until after the war, so for your purposes – there is an absolutely clear line in the sand there. Also, the Q30 & Q70 etc, whilst sharing a basic layout with the QII – and indeed – sharing exactly the same engine mounting points, these engine were a whole new design – no commonality whatsoever. Heavier, more robust, and with much more facilities to run accessories. However – all they actually shared were a few nuts and washers.

Back to the pre-war engines ;-

• The Gipsy Six Series I was the Fixed-Pitch original engine, with a tapered crankshaft end. I think this came out in late 1933/early 1934. The militarised version of the Series I was the Gipsy Queen III. These normally had the SI’s raised ‘GIPSY SIX’ lettering on the top cover deleted. Extra crankcase reinforcement by means of added through-bolts, and some later versions of the QIII used the QII top-cover, so as to be able to run more accessories.
• The Gipsy Six Series II was quite different to the SI. It had the No.1SBAC splined end to the crankshaft to take the DH PD30 VP airscrew. It also had different heads, pistons, barells, crankcase and camshaft. The militarised version of the Gipsy Six Series II was the Queen II. This also had the crankcase reinforcement and the ‘GIPSY SIX’ normally deleted from the top-cover.
• All the above shared oil filters and pumps, fuel pumps, carburettors and ignition system – and starters when fitted.

     Broadly-speaking, production of the QIII & QII were driven by production of the Rapide/Dominie*** and the Proctor respectively. All marks of Proctor Mk’s I – to IV were driven by QII fitted with a PD30, with the exception of some early MkI’s that probably had SII’s fitted.

I don’t know much about the Rapide/Dominies, but just to confuse things, Impressed Rapides were referred to as Dominies – as well as the actual military production.

The prototype Proctor MkI, serial number P5998, first flew on 8 October 1939 from Luton Airport, and the type was put into production for the RAF and Fleet Air Arm.

     I always used to presume that Queen III & Queen II production was all wartime. However, I now strongly suspect that they were ordered and went into production during the re-armament rush in the late 1930’s – in order to be able to be ready in time for the war. Some more research is clearly needed to clarify dates when production commenced. As I mentioned previously, there was full production data available on CD’s a few years ago.

*** ;-    A few Dominies  ( DH89A – Series Four I think….) were – and still are, fitted with QII & PD30’s – (A rather a pointless added complexity & weight for an a/c with a relatively narrow speed-range.).

Thanks everyone, @Tonk, at this stage, because of their likely significant volumes even only as display engines, I had specifically intended to exclude both the Gipsy Major and the Gipsy Queen series of engines from this first list, as that can lead you into post war versions like Gipsy Major Mk 10s, Queen 30’s and 70’s.

Also the number of those engines in airframes (static and flying) would increase the list even further, – but I am happy to add those models in later once we have focused on the “pre-war” civil engines.

While the Major itself was a pre-war civil engine, its production exploded during WW2, while I will need to check my manuals but I understood that the Queen’s were military versions of the Gipsy Six first associated with wartime types like the Dominie and Proctor?

I will take on board all the contributions above and publish a revision

DH82EH – Thanks very much for the I.D on the engine in the photo I posted. It makes a lot of sense then to have it displayed beside the Hawk Major as it is correct for that type (and a few others, of course!)

Rapide G-ADAH has two engines of course, Gipsy Queen IIIs s/n 70857 and 71339, I believe.

The picture of the cutaway engine, posted by Mothminor, looks like a Gipsy Major to me.

It still has the camshaft driven fuel pump mounted on the L/H side, so is out of something other than a Tiger Moth.

Aeroplanes with an overhead tank are gravity fed and don’t require these pumps.

Low wing aircraft do require them.

That’s all I’ve got for that.

I did some servicing on this Gipsy Two engine, highlighted in this video, of a Gipsy Moth.

I was the engineer involved in importing it back in to Canada from the USA.

(1016) Flying a DH-60 Gipsy Moth, Part One – YouTube

Andy

DH Gipsy Minor
– c/n?- Hendon
– c/n? – Museum of Flight
– c/n 80464 – RC Shelley Collection
– c/n? – RRHT Derby

G-AFPN – @ Shobdon.

 DH Gipsy Six (Series I)
  – c/n? – Science Museum
– c/n 6617 – Shuttleworth Collection
– c/n? 60105 – Shuttleworth Collection
– c/n? 6174 – Mk IF – in Miles Hawk Speed Six G-ADGP (T Buffaloe?)

DH Gipsy Six (Series II)
– c/n ? – Aeroplane Collection:
– c/n 60046 – Midland Air Museum
– c/n 70857 – Rapide G-ADAH (The Aeroplane Collection) Museum of Science & Industry – Manchester
– c/n?  – Newark Air Museum
– c/n?  – Newark Air Museum
– c/n 4245A – Shuttleworth Collection

G-HEKL’s engine was listed as a QI – but was really just a Six II with the drive gears for the CSU not fitted – since refitted – so it’s a Six II now….

DH Gipsy Six (Series R)
– c/n 6330 – R C Shelley Collection
– c/n 6065 – ex-Miles Hawk Speed Six G-ADOD – Shuttleworth Collection.

The R engine on the stand at Old Warden seems to have somewhat murky provenance.

As I mentioned earlier – I’m unsure as to when they started making QIII & QII – but strongly suspect they can be prewar as production probably started circa 1938/9 – but no idea offhand how to find out for sure. Suggestions….? G-ACSS was mentioned in the thread – but that has QII’s for sure. Most Rapides have Six I or QIII – but a few have PD30’s on QII’s. All Proctors extant have QII’s – there are a number both static and flying. There is a Percival Q6 under rebuild – that has QII’s I think….? Ken Fern’s Comet has QII’s as well. Black Magic has Q30’s.

Some years ago – someone was selling CD’s of all DH Piston production – dates numbers – the lot. Stupidly, I missed acquiring a copy. Does anyone have a copy perchance….?

I ‘m only into the six cylinder  engines – primarily Six II & QII, so can’t really comment on the four cylinder engines. Overall, there’s probably at least two or three times the number of engines in the list in storage or on rebuild – six-cylinder wise, I know of around a couple of dozen at least, so there will be many more. Most are static or need a full rebuild at the very least. NOS or usable parts are like Hens Teeth now – and we are having to make new parts to rebuild them.

Need your expertise again, Mark. I’ve just found the photo I was looking for that I took at Montrose a few years ago. What type engine is this? It had been moved from its original position in the Museum to be displayed alongside the recently arrived Miles Hawk Major.

My mistake then. 

G-AFPN must have been re-engined at some point if that’s the case, Tonk. It certainly used to have a Gipsy Minor!

Edit – Still does according to the G-INFO website.

Mothminor  ;-   ‘Also to add to your list there is Moth Minor G-AFPN (Gipsy Minor) which, last I heard, was airworthy at Shobdon.’

I think you’ll find that machine is powered by a Cirrus Minor – probably the last one flying – in the UK at least.

There are way more engines than on that list. Also – are you including the QIII & QII….most of which were wartime production…..? (I think production actually started pre-war…..?).

There is a Gipsy Twelve displayed at Salisbury Hall

The Shelley Collection owned the Six R from Ruth Fontes’ Hawk Speed Six G-ADOD. The entire collection was bought by a single collector when auctioned a few years ago, the one at Old Warden is “said” to be from Henshaw’s Mew Gull, G-AEXF, if so it was originally installed in the DH88 Comet G-ACSS.

I’ve never seen numbers for either of these R engines before, the provenance of Ruth Fontes’ engine has never been explained – unless it was a spare engine that Phillips & Powis scrounged from Hatfield?

I’ve not found anything among my photos regarding a Gipsy Minor at Montrose, Mark, so I may be wrong there. Wiki lists a Gipsy Queen so maybe that’s what I am (mis)remembering.

Photos below of the Gipsy II at Dumfries taken this year.

Also to add to your list there is Moth Minor G-AFPN (Gipsy Minor) which, last I heard, was airworthy at Shobdon.

Rapide G-ADAH has moved from Manchester to Hooton Park.

There’s a Gipsy II at the Dumfries and Galloway Aviation Museum. If I remember correctly Montrose Air Station Heritage Centre has a sectioned Gipsy Minor but definitely put a question mark on that one meantime and I’ll have a search through the pics later.

The Southern Martlet at Shuttleworth has a Genet Major engine rather than a Gipsy.

The Shuttleworth Comet G-ACSS has 2 Gipsy Six series 2 engines according to the CAA G-INFO website

I believe Hawk Speed 6 G-ADGP is now owned by the Shuttleworth Trust.