Swedish F-4 Phantom II

Aeroplane Monthly’s November edition details the SAAB Lansen, it states that with the Viggen not expected in service until 1971 a Lansen improvement program was started and other alternatives were looked at. The options being licence production of the Buccaneer or F-4 Phantom “In the event the Buccaneer was deemed unsuitable and the Phantom too expensive” So this story at least proves some sort of consideration of the F-4

To make the story complete, we must remember that the brits fly JAS 39 Gripen, although they actually fly it in Sweden.

I don’t know if sweden train their own test pilots (I think they use the US Navy test pilot school), but Saab/Swedish Air Force worked closely with General Dynamics in developing their fly-by-wire system for JAS 39. Its not impossible that some earlier swedish pilots had expirence flying the F-4 from abroad and the story just got a bit out of hands 😀

I should love that history, but no…

The Swedish bureaucracy was very efficent, so there should have been papers about this, a fighter needs more than just the plane, it needs a lot of other stuff to be flying, so, “secret” tests is impossible.

The only loaned testplanes with “Kronmärke” that comes in mind is DHC Caribou and Turbo Pilatus Porter. A F18 and a Apache have been seen with Swedish markings, but this was producers/sellers initiative.

Jens

Fair enough… thanks.

One thing that I admire Swedish industry for is its determination to design, develop, and procure its own excellent indeginous designs, and in no finer fashion than the front-line combat aircraft for their own Air Force.
Beyond being a useful yardstick in current technology, I can’t imagine how the Phantom would have ever been considered against that background.
I’m inclined to think it’s a bit of the dreaded ‘what iffery’ that seems to be prevailant, maybe fueled by the existence of an F4 Wing within the Flygvapnet.

[QUOTE

Is there a possibility that, during the “early 1960s” evaluations for the Viggen programme mentioned by daniel-k, that a F-4 Phantom was loaned to Sweden for flight evaluations… and was temporarily painted in SwAF markings?

Like the “Gina in US Army markings”, it would never have appeared in the records as actually being owned or operated by the SwAF.

Just a theory… that’s all.[/QUOTE]

I should love that history, but no…

The Swedish bureaucracy was very efficent, so there should have been
papers about this, a fighter needs more than just the plane, it needs a
lot of other stuff to be flying, so, “secret” tests is impossible.

The F-4 was the main contender to AJ 37, but, besides political
considerations, the plane was more expensive, and did not have
the development potential as Viggen since it was an generation
older than AJ-37.

The only loaned testplanes with “Kronmärke” that comes in mind is DHC
Caribou and Turbo Pilatus Porter. A F18 and a Apache have been seen with
Swedish markings, but this was producers/sellers initiative.

Jens

A possibility for that story comes to mind… but a possibility only.

We all know that the US never operated the Fiat G.91… and that the US Army never operated fast jets.

But then we have this photo:

The story of that photo is this:

According to the Skyhawk organization web page: www.skyhawk.org/2C/productionhistory.htm, in 1961, two A4D-2 Skyhawks (BuNos 148490 and 148483) were borrowed by the U.S. Army and modified by Douglas for evaluation in competition with the Northrop N-156 (predecessor of the F-5) and an Italian Fiat G-91, for operations from unimproved airfields near front lines. Modifications of the Army Skyhawk included large dual wheels on beefed-up main landing gear mounts; a heavier wing to house the larger landing gear; and installation of an A-3 Skywarrior drag chute. Flown by Douglas test pilot Dru Wood, the modified “Army” Skyhawk won the competition, but the project was cancelled when Army funds were diverted to helicopter procurement.

The USAF protested to Congress, and Congress told the US Army there was no possibility of getting permission to buy a fixed-wing attack aircraft, and that the Army better stick to helicopters.

Is there a possibility that, during the “early 1960s” evaluations for the Viggen programme mentioned by daniel-k, that a F-4 Phantom was loaned to Sweden for flight evaluations… and was temporarily painted in SwAF markings?

Like the “Gina in US Army markings”, it would never have appeared in the records as actually being owned or operated by the SwAF.

Just a theory… that’s all.

Thank You all, dear men, for Your participation in this thread.

My special THANKS to Daniel-K, because I consider, he has written most probable version of fate of the Swedish “Phantom” !

Regards,
Flyer.

The Swedish Phantom is a “could have been”.

In the early 1960ies the Phantom was considered as an alternative to the Viggen programme.

In fact it was considered the best foreign contender, but in the end, the Swedish fighter was more suited for the nation’s needs.

The best place is always the horse’s mouth, so I emailed my pal who is an instructor flying the Saab Gripen with F7 Såtenäs.

The answer hereto:

“Flygvapnet has never flown the F4”.

They never operated Phantoms. I think there is some confusion with the Swedish AF F4 wing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_4_Fr%C3%B6s%C3%B6n

I spent a day at the Swedish Airforce Museum in Linköping a couple of months back and it’s very comprehensive. I’m sure if an F4 Phantom had seen any service with the Swedish Airforce they would of mentioned it.

A number of types served with Svensk Flygtjänst as target tugs, such as the Martinet, Firefly and Meteor but I doubt very much they operated a Phantom.

Obviously it’s a Phantom Swedish Phantom !

bush beating

😀

i toned it down

there were a few other words i wanted to use but i bottled it………. I will save them for the 558 thread

….don’t beat about the bush, say what you really mean!:D

Baz

Sweden never had phantom……..no 2 ways about it.

whoever said they did is really wrong and doesn’t know what he is on about.

Just a thought, that’s all.
Perhaps a nick name???
Thanks for the Swedish lesson. My Swedish is limited to that learned in IKEA and from the silver tounges of ABBA!

Rgds Cking

Swedish translation of Phantom is Fantom so if they used one, they did not use its original name.

Baz

The en in the SAAB names basically means ‘the’,

Tunnan Tub/Barrel, Lansen The Lance, Draken The Dragon, Viggen The Strike (as in Lightning or Thunder), Grippen The Griffin, Safir Sapphire.

I’ve never heard of the Phantom in SwA/F service, and can’t imagine why it would be.

What is the Swedish for “Phantom”?
I’m just thinking that Viggen means Thunderbolt and Draken means Dragon, perhaps another aircraft’s name translates into Phantom?

Rgds Cking