Taurus vs Scalp/Storm Shadow

Show it to Chinese they can reverse engineer anything. We can call things copies but that in itself require significant ability.

Lol just the Chinese understanding of ToT :D!!

1) How easy would it be to reverse engineer a Tomahawk engine from a crash-damaged example?

Not very, apparently. There is a reason why Babur has only half the range of a Tomahawk.

Show it to Chinese they can reverse engineer anything. We can call things copies but that in itself require significant ability.

1) How easy would it be to reverse engineer a Tomahawk engine from a crash-damaged example?, &

2) Did the USA recover the crashed Tomahawks?

as the US would be *very* wary about who gets his hands on what is essentially a Tomahawk engine.

With at least six Tomahawks that have crash-landed on Pakistani territory, Intack. I dont think the USA would be too worried about who else get there hands on a Tomahawk engine. Also it is speculated that Babur cruise missile is based on the Tomahawk cruise missile.

Dave

a range in excess of 250 km for the Scalp/Storm Shadow.

In fact, the Scalp EG’s max range is (more than) 400 km in its French variant (and I guess it’s the same for Storm Shadow).

Someone talked about MTCR, that’s why MBDA says “>250km” (Black Shaheen ?).

@Witcha

I believe within NATO is permitted as the MTCR does not apply to agreements made prior to it e.g the NATO agreement.

@TR1

It may just be limited to 290KM by software, with the Russians willing to “unlock” the missiles at a later date, or they could be lying, we’ll never know for sure.

Given how Russia has given aid to India on sensitive subjects like submarine launched missiles, I think (hope!) they don’t follow those silly guidelines beyond rhetoric. Honestly, who would know/be able to do anything if Indian missiles like Brahmos and Klub actually have a range similar to their equivalents in Russian service? Russian Klub has range well well above 1000km, you guys really think India and Russia couldn’t work something out under the table?

Russian sources constantly use disinformation, especially on sensitive subjects.

Witcha, treaties like MTCR are so full of loopholes and I am sure they will say the KEPD 350s range is less than 300 km in actual combat or something like that.

Do you for example believe that the Brahmos is limited to exactly 290 Km. nope.

There is no such thing as MTCR regulations, MTCR is an informal agreement not to share cruise missile technology to non-signatories.

As India already masters cruise missile technologies (as demonstrated by the Brahmos), MTCR is kinda moot.

The problem is very often the MTCR is treated like a law and used as an excuse to restrict export of missile technology. In this manner it has been applied to India many times in the past. Most recently when it was announced that the Nerpa SSN would be transferred to India with only 300km Klub LACMs instead of the 3000km Granat LACM.

And yes, I do believe the BrahMos is limited to 290km. It has been stated as such by both Indian and Russian sources with the explanation that they didn’t want to violate MTCR norms. This is confirmed by the fact that the Yakhont is slightly heavier with a smaller warhead, which was made heavier for the BrahMos.

Is the Taurus even available for export? It’s range exceeds MTCR regulations

There is no such thing as MTCR regulations, MTCR is an informal agreement not to share cruise missile technology to non-signatories.

As India already masters cruise missile technologies (as demonstrated by the Brahmos), MTCR is kinda moot.

Witcha, treaties like MTCR are so full of loopholes and I am sure they will say the KEPD 350s range is less than 300 km in actual combat or something like that.

Do you for example believe that the Brahmos is limited to exactly 290 Km. nope.

^

Exceptions have often been made in the MTCR for US/NATO friends and partners. I’m not sure the US(having lost the MMRCA contest) won’t throw a hissy-fit over the Taurus going to India with either the Typhoon or Rafale given how they behaved when India was trying to purchase cryogenic engine technology from Russia(‘MTCR! They’ll use it to build ICBMs derp!’) and the Arrow-2 from Israel(‘Potential range above 300km! Even though it’s a SAM and not a cruise missile, MTCR!’).

@Witcha;1825978

Spain bought some, so they must be.

Spain’s military bought 43 missiles. The integration of the TAURUS in the Spanish Air Force service line has been certified by the successful completion of a dedicated test campaign in South Africa, carried out in May 2009.[7] Other countries may also order TAURUS.[8]

MBDA has offered Tauras KEPD 350 to the Indian Air Force for its Su 30 MKI fighter jets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KEPD_350

The turbofan/turbojet thing pretty much explains the difference in range.

Is the Taurus even available for export? It’s range exceeds MTCR regulations, yet I remember reading mention of it as an armament option for the Eurofighter in the Indian MMRCA program.:confused:

I’ll pretend I didn’t read your xenophobic comments, just added for other posters that I’ve just seen there was a programme of mid life update for the scalp/storm shadow of 200 million € starting from 2015 for delivery starting 2018.

Anyone know what they consist of?

Nic

So anyone that chooses to buy from a superior product from a different country is xenophobic? Those countries that chose Eurofighter instead of Rafale are xenophobes too? If that French turbine was even close to as good then there is a good chance the Germans would have selected it.

IIRC I read that Scalp/Storm Shadow has a fair bit of RAM, & Taurus saves weight by omitting it, presumably substituting fuel. I don’t know if that’s correct.

There’s also the question of how range is calculated. The Storm Shadow range is definitely launcher to target, not flight distance, & I’m sure that “more than” means “a lot more than”.

If you check the Taurus site, you’ll see that there are some variants offered, e.g. an extended-range version. Smaller warhead, more fuel = 800km range.

The Storm Shadow/SCALP seems to have a weaker engine with fewer stages so there is a chance that the specific fuel consumption is worse too. The Taurus uses an American turbine, the Storm Shadow/SCALP uses a French turbine, so was most likely chosen based on workshare rather than it’s turbining credentials! To the credit of Storm Shadow/SCALP it seems to have more wingspan.

StormShadow/SCALP has a turbojet engine (same basic design as the one in the Sea Eagle) while Taurus uses a turbofan, so SFC will indeed be worse and it is also why the latter can afford more (sea level static) thrust. However I’d expect the decision to have been driven by export considerations – I seriously doubt the UAE could have obtained Taurus in place of Black Shaheen, as the US would be *very* wary about who gets his hands on what is essentially a Tomahawk engine.

I’ll pretend I didn’t read your xenophobic comments, just added for other posters that I’ve just seen there was a programme of mid life update for the scalp/storm shadow of 200 million € starting from 2015 for delivery starting 2018.

Anyone know what they consist of?

Nic

The Storm Shadow/SCALP seems to have a weaker engine with fewer stages so there is a chance that the specific fuel consumption is worse too. The Taurus uses an American turbine, the Storm Shadow/SCALP uses a French turbine, so was most likely chosen based on workshare rather than it’s turbining credentials! To the credit of Storm Shadow/SCALP it seems to have more wingspan.