TFC Mossie riddle solved – and boy am I pleased!

Shucks!

Well Goll durn it! I was getting all excited about the possibility of seeing one of them there H-24 sleeve valve motored planes flying > Not nice!

I think this tread has fooled more people after it was bumped forward than on the first of April.

You had my attention for shure at the start of this tread.

Goood one!

Stieglitz

*sigh* – a ray of sunlight in this murky day – thanks for exhuming this – just what I needed !

Martin

Got me too. April fool or not – nice one!

Its not april fools now.

I was well excited when i saw it and started reading the first few posts!

Thought from the title the mossie was still in the uk or something, then a typhoon. Unfair whoever bumped this thread!

🙁 😡 :rolleyes:

Jay

This is probably my favourite thread of all: http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=15042&highlight=Duxford+2040

Oh how times change!

Hi Snapper et al,

Snapper, old sport, you are naughty:p
Good job we know each other! Can’t fault a good banter, now & again. Just for the record- my favourite single engined aeroplane- Typhoon/Tempest. Which makes it #3 after Mosquitoes & Beaufighters, in my list of personal favourites. (& yes I would love to hear that Sabre engine for real! I love listening to the recording on the Tempest Page! What an awesome sound- beautiful)

The point I made in another post, about losing another Mosquito to the Americans (& Canadians), was, there are already quite a few Mosquitoes in storage over there & why came they put some of them together, BEFORE another one is added to the list.

As for Glynn’s Mosquito? He’s been at for quite sometime & he’s produced a static fuselage. I seem to recall that one of his next fuselages might be going to Kermit Weeks. I can’t remember whether that was a fact or rumour.

Cheers,
Neilly:)

Thanks Alexis – at least somebody realised! LOL. I only wish it were true. One Mossie would be a good deal, as would ten Mustangs, for a Typhoon.

But its true though, we are spoilt with Mossies, relatively speaking. We have ONE bloody Typhoon left, a late one, and it would be nice, would it not, to hear a different engine and see a different aircraft to normal, no? Whats a Mossie, after all? Two Merlins attached to a wardrobe. You know its true.

Of course both were war winners (Neilly, SIT!) “it’s a little unfair to compare both aircraft as you have”. I KNOW! Thats the whole point – when was the last thread we had that was this detailed and passionate? Devils advocate I am. Even if the Tiffy WAS undoubtedly the best.

Hehe. Back to the blast pen.

Oh well you can’t blame me for trying, they were getting a bit carried away though don’t you think? I was a premature april fool because I thought monday was the 1st and tricked myself by putting the 1st as the date on all the orders I sent out on monday, the shame 😮

Tom

Tom, it was an april fools joke.
And a good one at that.

Lads, lads lads… eh calllllllllm down (in me best scouse accent) they were both very important aircraft to the war effort and both had important parts to play. The point most of you are missing is that we will see a Mossie fly in future years but I think that for the sake of swapping one mossie, when we already have NUMEROUS statics in the country anyway, for a POSSIBLY airworthy Tiffie is the deal of the century, especially seeing as it is possibly a car-door version, I can certainly think of a few old boys who would be very pleased to hear of the deal. Now Glynn Powell is making great progress in New Zealand with his efforts to get more Mossies in the air I think we will see a Mossie fly sooner rather than later, you lot moan like hell when we lose a plane to the states but do you hear the Yanks moan when the same happens with their a/c going the opposite way? Most of you related your tales of woe when the subject of Black 6 arose again a while back and I was one too, but she (in most of your eyes) “has no significance flying in these skies” with certain individuals’ comments about the Mossie having no relevance flying in US skies I think you need to look at what is/will soon be flying over here, YAK 1 people, come on. I admit I am slightly saddened to hear of the sale but I was even more gutted to hear of Tim Moore’s Beau being put up for sale as she’s a much rarer beast and I get a strong feeling that she will disappear over the pond so to speak but as long as it gets treated well I’m not quite so worried.

Tom (I’m on Snapper’s side and proud of it)

Hi Snapper,

I can see this could be a good one!!!

The Mosquito wasn’t a war winner? I don’t wish to insult the Typhoon, but it didn’t do half as much as the Mosquito. I think if you check out your history from the Luftwaffe’s point of view. Luftwaffe pilots, if they managed to shot a Mosquito down, were credited with a double victory! The Mosquito was the only Allied aircraft (as far as I know) which was givemn this sort of supreme status! After the war many German Officer were asked what was one of the biggest effects on their morale the answer was the Mosquito!

Now we have the FW 190 tip & run? Mosquitoes were used primary at night, in the defence of good olde GB. When the FW 190’s tried this tactic (it should also be pointed out that they were trying to copy Mosquito intruder tactics). When these night raids first started (I can’t remember the exact night, but it’s discribed in the Rawnsley & Wright book Night Fighter) 5 FW 190’s came over to bomb London, 4 were shot down over England & the other was damaged & crash landed in France, killing the pilot. So Mosquitoes 4.5; FW 190’s 0.

I can’t recall Typhoons bombing Berlin. Mosquitoes on many occasions went there even when the rest of Bomber Command was grounded because weather conditions were wrong. On one occasion, Mosquitoes went there on 30 (THIRTY) consecitive nights! I would add to the point Moggy made-the same Mosquitoes very often went on 2 bommbing missions in one night. Come back re-fuel, re-arm & change the crew. Sometimes it was the same target, sometimes different. Here’s an eg. LR 503 (the subject of my model) either side of D-Day, in a 5 day day spell it flew 11 sorties, with 2 different crews). Had it not been for the fact that one of it’s Merlins expired on that 11 sortie, she would almost certainly clocked up a few more (that was LR 503 203 operational sortie!)

I can’t recall Typhoons doing specialised raids such as Amien Prison Raid (Typhoons were operating as escorts for this one), Shelhaus etc. either.

I would also like to know how many trains Typhoons stopped in the first 24 hours after D-Day? Mosquitoes stopped 29! Also bear in mind that Mosquitoes operated mainly at night, so it’s a little unfair to compare both aircraft as you have. But I think (& yes I am totally biased. Would you expect any other?) the Mosquito made a bigger inpact on Allied war effort than the Typhoon. overall!

I can keep going but I think that’s enough to be going on with. I could also mention anti shipping strikes, bomber support, PRU. etc, the list is almost endless! So please don’t relegate the Mossie to a position it doesn’t deserve.

(You knew I’d jump in with both size 11’s?) :p

TTFN,
Neilly

just to drop my two pennies worth in….

a mosquito could carry the same nuclear weapon(in terms of weight!) as a canberra could…..AND get home again, whereas the canberra would be running on empty whilststill hopeing for sweden……

as for the typhoon, I think it would be GREAT to see a complete airframe in our skies. Bring it on as far as I’m concerned.

as for swapping it for a mossie, and each aircrafts historical merits…..well that could go on for a long time….

like everything, if you dont use it in what it is good for…..then you shouldnt expect it to work at all.

PS I’d attribute more shipping to beaus than mossies….or do the iron cast inked figures wrong me here?

coanda

Just climbing on my high horse.
Do the bomb load calculations again with the B17!

Snapper, I’m not knocking the Typhoon, although I believe the Mossie was more of a war winner. Imagine no Typhoons. Mosquito FBIV could have done the job. How successfully isn’t possible to estimate, but it could have done it. Very slightly more firepower, similar speed, manoeuverability haven’t a clue.
Some of the jobs the Mossie did weren’t possible without it.

By the time they’d finished developing the Typhoon, it was a completely different aircraft with a family resemblance.

Fifth columnists is good. Some decisions, opinions and views seem very strange now, with the benefit of hindsight but we can only assume they were genuinely felt.
Isn’t hindsight wonderful?

Operation Blackmail, Gilze Rijen.

Typhoons of 609 protecting the Mossie (Of who’s Sqdn I am momentarily blank).

That is rather an interesting thing to ponder Moggy. Thats 4 bods instead of 7 bods per 8000 lb of bombs, smaller targets for flak / fighters / raider, and quicker too. With the speed, and faster turnaround times for the groundcrews, 2 ops per night would have been, perhaps, sustainable for a good percentage of aircraft – iwth less valuable material being consumed overall. Very interesting point, thanks.

When you consider the anti-Mosquito crowd initially, with hindsight, its almost like they were fifth-columnists! But then you go on holiday now in some flying bus, and its faster than any WW2 piston fighter.

Ponder this

About twenty years back somebody published a fascinating thesis.

Given that the Mossie bomb load reached 4,000 lbs as against the Lancaster’s 8,000 they postulated that the same effect achieved by the RAF heavies could have been reached by a larger force of Mosquitos at far less cost, both financial and in terms of lives.

As we know the loss rate of the Mossie was a fraction of that suffered by the four-engined jobbies, plus for every Mosquito lost the maximum casualty cost was two bods.

And don’t forget the Mossies were known to complete two raids (The second with a fresh crew) in the longer winter nights.

Of course if we had created such a force the Luftwaffe nachtjager arm would have looked considerably different. But given the need for a decent radar installation to locate a 350 kt Mossie the concentration would have been unlikely to have been on single-engine converted dayfighters.

Discuss

Moggy

Development – Canopy? LOL! Canopy, prop, machine guns / cannon, larger tailplane, different wing, longer fuselage radial engine etc etc (because the Typhoon was modified so heavily they called it a Tempest V. Led to the Tempest II, another modification stage.)

The Mossie, of course, needed to be modified…

I think it IS useful to try and state why one is better than the other – because I know loads about the Typhoon, but not about the Mossie, or their contexts – and therefore, we educate each other and ourselves, which is a purpose of the forum to a degree, yes? It’s not about saying one is crap – it’s about saying why the other is better.

Typhoon looks like a Focke Wulf? to Spitfire, Thunderbolt pilots, and AA gunners, they did for sure.

The Mossie was incredibly useful, incredibly versatile, and incredibly good – but it was never a ‘war-winner’ – it never

Typhoon – low-level interceptor – the very best until the Tempest V came along. Could outfly an Fw190 in combat conditions. Perhaps re-engined it would have been a different story at high altitude, certainly made a difference with the Mustang. Nobody who flew them ever forgot them.

Another Tiffy drawback – the necessity to use oxygen from the word go, to avoid carbon monoxide poisoning. And next to impossible to ditch successfully. Periodically caught fire on start up, so needed erks with fire extinguishers. Plus sides were that it was an incredibly stable gun platform, incredibly fast, with high cruising speed, and able to absorb a hell of a lot of damage without going down.

Mixed feelings really. I love Mossies and have done ever since I can remember but every time I go to Hendon I’m completely awestruck by the Tiffie. To me it’s like a Victor, beautifully ugly!
I must admit, I would love to see one in the air but I’m not sure it’s worth a Mossie.

However, you must be joking with your comparisons.

Typhoon. Designed as high altitude interceptor – failure. Thanks largely to Roland Beamont, new lease of life as probably the best ground attack aircraft of the war. Total built around 3,300, a fair few of which never entered service and were scrapped as they came off the production line. Development, none apart from canopy.

Mosquito. The most versatile aircraft of WW2, and some would say ever. The fastest aircraft, on either side, for 2.1/2 years during a war which saw the most rapid development of the 20th century. In RAF sevice until middle 50s and then with CAACU until early 60s. Total built 7,781 according to most books. Development, several books worth. Just a couple of example, which I’m sure you all know anyway. The fighter-bomber carried twice the original design bomb-load of the bomber, plus the guns.
Later ones, 2 stage Merlins, pressurised, 4000lb bomb (4 times design load) in what was a fairly small aircraft.

Definitely, no contest.

Willow, you forgot torpedo-bomber and airliner.(gr)

Still think it would have looked great polished and with a black and white checkered nose and stars and bars.