Thames Fort Fire

Try this site, www.ecastles.co.uk, it has some info on these offshore forts, identified my Cleethorpes one to.
It seems that they were all generally abandoned in 1956, I wonder why that specific year, perhaps giving up after the Suez debacle.

The Qunetic site at Shoeburry have issed a warning that resedense of South Essex/North Kent should expect to hear a number of large to very large bangs between 2L00-4:30 during the testing of a new missle system.

Would be tempted to go and see if I could see anything but the aera is normally closed off and people moved on if seen standing arrounf the layex goves come out if they see a camera! 😮

Adrian – is that the one regarding Cold War defences? If it is, it’s currently on the wish list – if not, tell me more before I hoof it of to the CBA web site!

Chris

Chris,

This is largely WW2 – not sure as I don’t have a CBA booklist to hand where the Cold War one is. I was expecting a scholarly tome on the different sorts of fortification and where and why you’d site them and so on – in fact it is a series of surveys of surviving defence sites and schemes. I’m still not sure which of the two would be better – but even if you buy one and aren’t interested, you’ll never be short of a doorstop – it’s a whopper!

Good luck with the CBA website – it’s a bit clunky!

Adrian

There is another fort in the medway. Well 3 if you count the two on little islands off Gillingham. The Grain battery between Sheerness and Grain. accessible at low tide apparently.

http://www.ecastles.co.uk/graintower.html

Dezz

Nick ( Old fart ),

After looking at the Sealand Pics, how do they get on it? I could not see no ladders going up either of the two supports which i gather are hollow?

Any ideas?

Jamie

There are ways… Coke can, wire and a gun type thing wire is attached to can can if fired over the structure, wire is attached to bigger piece of wire which is attached to a rope pull rope up and attach it to your boat climb up rope.

The legs are hollow, this is accomodation, storeage and the generator room.

Co-ordinates of forts are:

Navy Forts

Roughs Tower/Sealand 8 miles off Harwich 51.53′ 40.8 North x 1.28 56’7 East still standing

Sunk head 12.5 miles off Harwich 51.46.51 North x 1.30.31 East blown up Monday 21st August 1967

Tounge Sands 6miles off Margate 51.29.55 North x 1.22.11 East collapsed 21st February 1996 never recoverd

Knock John 12miles off Herne Bay 51.33.72 North x 1.09.83 East still standing

Army Forts

Red sands six miles off Minster,51.28.62 North x 0.59.60 East Isle of Sheppy, Kent only complete fort

Nore sand midway between Sheerness & Shoeburyness.51.25.45 North x 0.50.00 East completey demolished

Shivering sands seven miles off Herne Bay, Kent. 51.29.95 North x 1.04.48 East

keep meaning to do google earth and the windows live local to see if the aera has been photgraphed.

Actually, a little digging has found this list: http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server/show/nav.9236

Chris

Chris,

The Council for British Archaeology have recently produced a hefty tome on the defence of Britain, but this does not cover offshore fortifications. Probably the best mapping for these would be the Admiralty charts!

IIRC Knock John kept its 6″ guns into the 1990s before they were recovered for a museum. However after that long in salt air I dread to think what state they were in!

ADrian

Adrian – is that the one regarding Cold War defences? If it is, it’s currently on the wish list – if not, tell me more before I hoof it of to the CBA web site!

Pete – you have to a bit canny about your search queries on that site! I tried for an awfully long time to find something regarding airfields (you’ve probably guessed that is one of my passions). A few test queries eventually found at least three free downloadable PDFs on the subject. Once you find them, it’s not difficult to order copies of them either. The first time I came across this sort of thing from EH was when I worked at Sheffield City Museum as a volunteer in the archaeology & ethnographyy department (as well as the ecology unit) and the archaeological conservator at the time indicated she had seen something which may interest me. It did. I donb;t have the relevanmt documents to hand at the minute but I’ve asked 1Group (who also has copies) to dig out the Eh doc. reference numbers. Ifg that’ll help anything. Many of these consultation documents and the liek are free.

Chris

Nick ( Old fart ),

After looking at the Sealand Pics, how do they get on it? I could not see no ladders going up either of the two supports which i gather are hollow?

Any ideas?

Jamie

cdp206
English Heritage have a good website concerning buildings at risk, but I don’t recall any WW2 buildings being on there, which is sad.
As far as the Langar Shackletons are concerned, I have the ultimate family bible in front of me, ie, my brothers photo album, and I distinctly remember pictures taken through the fence of Langar Shackletons, but can I find them, no way, they must have fallen out during various home moves and may have gone forever, someone may have chucked them in the bin, what a waste, however, I do have all his negatives so I will see what I can do, but don’t hold your breath.

Heres a few from Beacon hill fort in Dovercourt(ina) sorry! The powers that be (don’t know whether its MOD property or council ,or even private) have erected a huge pallisade fence all round , (the old had rotted down to the ground) but they left the gate off !! Quite a large area (must be a couple of acres), and slightly dangerous with shear drops down one, and even two levels in some places, exacerbated by brambles and undergrowth etc. I bet its a scary place at night too ,judging by all the graffiti and empty lager cans ,inside one of the redundant gun emplacements..

Do you thinks it’s possible that someone, somewhere has a chart or record of these things? You’ve started me thinking now (a rare occurance, reading some of my other posts), there must be a record somewhere. I don’t know how comprehensive the English Heritage records are and whether they extend to (or include) previously extant structures, giving an overall picture of defensive devices? The ‘Defence of Britain’ project of a few years ago was a broad-brushed attempt to record structures, principally dating from WW2 (IIRC – I haven’t read the paperwork for a while) and may well include edifices such as off-shore fortifications. I have a contact at Leeds Met Uni who has had dealings with EH (albeit regarding WW2 airfields in Yorkshire) but he may have some ideas/further contacts. I could try him if you like and look into it.

Chris

Chris,

The Council for British Archaeology have recently produced a hefty tome on the defence of Britain, but this does not cover offshore fortifications. Probably the best mapping for these would be the Admiralty charts!

IIRC Knock John kept its 6″ guns into the 1990s before they were recovered for a museum. However after that long in salt air I dread to think what state they were in!

ADrian

Lived in Southend all my life and do an award winning impresion of a U-Boat when ever I try and swim… so I dont.

In the school swimming gala the team was posted and I was listed for the depth!

Pete [this is off topic and maybe should be a PM, so I’l apologise to the moderators now!] – do you have any of the photos of the Shacks at Langar available? It’s just that a visit by 1Group and myself to that airfield is not out of the question for sometime this year. You can drop me a personal if you like.

Cheers,

Chris

Old Fart – thanks for that. At least there is a possibilty that a little part of the country’s defence heritage may not be lost. Will check the link you posted and see what’s what. As I said, I have never seen one of these things ‘up close and personal’ (well, you wouldn’t, living where I do!) but as a believer in the preservation of heritage, even a small amount can go towards something!

Pete.
Do you thinks it’s possible that someone, somewhere has a chart or record of these things? You’ve started me thinking now (a rare occurance, reading some of my other posts), there must be a record somewhere. I don’t know how comprehensive the English Heritage records are and whether they extend to (or include) previously extant structures, giving an overall picture of defensive devices? The ‘Defence of Britain’ project of a few years ago was a broad-brushed attempt to record structures, principally dating from WW2 (IIRC – I haven’t read the paperwork for a while) and may well include edifices such as off-shore fortifications. I have a contact at Leeds Met Uni who has had dealings with EH (albeit regarding WW2 airfields in Yorkshire) but he may have some ideas/further contacts. I could try him if you like and look into it.

Chris

After the end of hostilities in 1946 the Navy Sea Forts (sealand) were reduced to a Care and Maintenance role with crews being replaced every four weeks however during the cold war all the equipment was upgraded, but then in 1956 the forts were declared surplus and were abandoned with most of the equipment being stripped out, however the 3.7 heavy anti-aircraft guns were left in situ.

Army Sea Forts
After the end of the war the forts were placed in to care and maintenance up until 1956 when the army stripped the forts of all their equipment and guns and abandoned them. Over the following year Government discussed what to do with then but on cost grounds declared them to be out side UK territorial waters. This did not however include the Red Sands fort.

Ok, we’ll forget the cortina’s and subsequent Ribena’s and get back to the forts.

When were they actually abandoned by the military and their armaments removed.

I remember back in the late 50’s going on a train excursion to Cleethorpes from Edwinstowe one Easter and there was a fort off the coast there, reached by a causeway that was still manned by the military with a full complement of 25 pounders, my old man, being an ex artillery person, actually got us inside, as usual, and we were given a guided tour of the place by the soldiers, I remember it was a stone built structure, probably dating from the time of Napolionic wars and the guns were absolutely gleaming, whatever happened to that as I haven’t been back since.

Incidentally, the old boy wasn’t always succesful at legal entry, we once tried to get round Annesley engine sheds one sunday morning and despite the old boys charm, the shed foreman told us in no uncertain terms to ‘bog off’, at which point the old man called him a miserable b###### and said ‘Ok fetch the police we’re going round anyway as we’ve always done’.
Nothing was done, some nice Brittannias, Pates, Scots and Jubilees in there that day as well, he must have known.

Also had an incident at Langar airfield when we were nearly arrested for photographing Shackletons, but he talked his way out of that as well.

The latest news on Roughs Tower/Sealand is…

An estimated £500,000 of damage was caused by the fire, the owers The Bates Familay want to repair it.

it was not insured so money is being collected via the sealand website

Sealand

Some of the notams issued make intresting reading, one where they order a 1 mile exclusion zone to ALL shipping! sea they dont own…

I’d like to see the cow that caused that! 😀

I was trying to think of one that went with that typo WV! Very good!

Actually, what is the future for that particular fort? Will it be deemded DBR and blown-up/scrapped, etc? I have never visited one of these although find just the images of them extremely interesting and somehow, quite spoooky standing alone as they do.

Yep the USS Richard Montgomery,

She was mooed on the Thames Estuary when the winds and tide changed diarection and she ran aground …

I’d like to see the cow that caused that! 😀

When Elvis Sang “Cortina scrap (yard), I can’t walk out…” who’d have thought it was Essex he was on about.