I read the small bit about the Boeing 7E7 in the latest Airliner World which I received some days ago.
I’ve always thought that Boeing are the better manufacturer over rival, Airbus. However, with the introduction of the A380, competition over the coming years is going to be very stiff for the two.
Airbus, as you know, are introducing the A380 – the only completely double decker aircraft which is due for release in a couple of years and there are already several orders with top airlines.
I was hoping that Boeing could release something just as good, like the 747 with an entire first floor to it – virtually the same as the A380. They need something which is going to sell and make them the more favourable manufacturer at the end of the day.
I’m not happy with their latest plans, the 7E7. All it appears to be at the moment is a 17-18% more economical version of the 767-300 and that is there aircraft for the future, which I might add, is not due for release for another 5 years!
I believe the future for Boeing looks bleak and Airbus are going to make it big with their A380 aircraft.
I want to know which you think will be more of a success? The 7E7 of Boeing or the A380 of Airbus. Both of which have long haul capabilities and are due for release within a year or so of one another.
For me, it’s Airbus.
By: mongu - 17th March 2003 at 23:51
Good post TTP, and I must see it seems a common thread that Boeing make “pilots’ planes” whilst Airbus make “accountants’ planes”
But how would you rate the “unbreakability” of the more heavily engineered Boeings, compared to other chunky designs like the DC10 or L1011?
By: EGNM - 17th March 2003 at 21:26
cheers for that input TTP – I take it your a freight jock – glad to have another voice of experiance onboard!
By: TTP - 17th March 2003 at 19:38
Asa pilot who flies for an airline that flies both Boeing and Airbus in our fleet, the consensus seems to be that Boeings are built stronger and last longer than the Bus’s. Maintenance wise the Bus’s seem to be more prone to little nit-noid problems, and pilots that have flown both (we have brand-new A-300’s as well as 757/767 )seem to prefer the Boeings. Granted the A-300 are not the state of the art jet the A-330 are, but friends at USAir share the same sentiments, and they have the A-330. This is not a US vs. Europe issue either since most prefer the A-320 series over the 737, but all admit you can’t break these Boeings. As a 727 pilot I’ll attest that our 727’s are 99% reliable and I’ve only cancelled 2 flights in 8 years. Bottom line one is not superior to the other just different.
By: MapleLeaf_330 - 17th March 2003 at 18:37
I believe that it can, Mongu. Didn’t Qantas choose the 330 as it’s replacement aircraft for the 767? Also, EI has used the 330 trans-Atlantic, as have US Airways. And, if I’m not mistaken, KLM have selected the 330 on medium range routes also. Most of those companies were staunch Boeing customers. The 767 has a good reputation as a work horse.
I firmly believe that a lot of politics (noth economical and political)are played when companies are deciding which aircraft type to select.
By: mongu - 17th March 2003 at 18:25
My money is on the 7E7… providing the Boeing does it right (fly by wire and commonality with the 777). To arrive at this conlusion one simply has to look at the hundreds of B767s and A300/310s in fleets worldwide. The majority of these aircraft are rapidly approaching 20+ years and will have to be replaced at some point. I don’t believe the A330 quite serves the purpose as a true replacement for this market segment (I base this solely on my own observation, however feel free to prove me wrong. There are a large number of Airbus operators still operating large fleets of B767s or A300/310s or they operate A330s alongside a fleet of B767s or A300/310s. An example is Air Canada). If Boeing can deliver on its promise of fuel efficiency I think you will soon see the 7E7 as the “most popular aircraft crossing the Atlantic”.
Can I ask a straightforward question and say, why can the A330 not replace the A300/A310/767 ?
By: TTP - 17th March 2003 at 18:22
Mapleleaf,
Agreed, However total sales of the 747 are a little over 1,000 aircraft (if someone knows the exact # please correct me) and this is for a jet thats been flying close to 40 years, So If Boeing decided to compete with the A-380 directly it would be a huge leap of faith, and they are not willing to take the risk. There are more lucrative niches waiting to be exploited. Airbus is taking advantage of the niche Boeing has left by not building a follow-on jet to the 747. either way both companies will probably be around long after we are all gone.
By: MapleLeaf_330 - 17th March 2003 at 13:57
Air Canada has airbus aircraft due to a government contract with Airbus during the late eighties when AC was a crown corporation. Also, a number of their 767’s are inherited from Canadian Airlines International.
Although I agree that Boeing has clearly abandoned the ultra large aircraft market, save orders that may be still up and coming for the 747, Boeing does compete with Airbus in almost every other market and splits the competition.
I’m not advocating for either company here, I believe that competition is very healthy, but, the fact that Airbus only has 100 orders does not mean the program will not be successful, companies could be waiting to see how succesful the aircraft is, and, more likely, weathering out this severe ravine in global profits.
Both companies employ a lot of people worldwide. Just looking recently in Canada at Bombardier’s lay offs, when an aircraft manufacteurer hurts the whole community hurts.
By: KabirT - 16th March 2003 at 15:34
Re: The 7E7 vs the A-380
Originally posted by TTP
A-330 and others,Your analysis of the business model for the 7E7 and the A-380 is very simplistic. Boeing will not and CAN”T build an aircraft to compete directly with the A-380 for two reasons. First Boeing feels the market for this aircraft is not large enough. A-330 cites a few carriers that have ordered the A-380, I believe total sales so far is hovering around 100 or so. Airbus will have to sell over 500 and some estimate closer to one thousand to break even on the cost of developing this jet. Point two, If Boeing was to compete head to head with the A-380 both companies would split what little market there is for such a Jet and insure that they would both lose Billions of Dollars. Just read about the DC-10 and L-1011, Lockheed and Douglas aren’t in the business anymore because of poor market forecasts. Boeing has conceeded the Ultra-large-jet market to the A-380, and is betting that airlines would rather buy more smaller efficient jets like the 7E7. Only time will tell who is right.
totally agreed!
By: binx - 16th March 2003 at 02:27
My money is on the 7E7… providing the Boeing does it right (fly by wire and commonality with the 777). To arrive at this conlusion one simply has to look at the hundreds of B767s and A300/310s in fleets worldwide. The majority of these aircraft are rapidly approaching 20+ years and will have to be replaced at some point. I don’t believe the A330 quite serves the purpose as a true replacement for this market segment (I base this solely on my own observation, however feel free to prove me wrong. There are a large number of Airbus operators still operating large fleets of B767s or A300/310s or they operate A330s alongside a fleet of B767s or A300/310s. An example is Air Canada). If Boeing can deliver on its promise of fuel efficiency I think you will soon see the 7E7 as the “most popular aircraft crossing the Atlantic”.
By: TTP - 16th March 2003 at 00:56
The 7E7 vs the A-380
A-330 and others,
Your analysis of the business model for the 7E7 and the A-380 is very simplistic. Boeing will not and CAN”T build an aircraft to compete directly with the A-380 for two reasons. First Boeing feels the market for this aircraft is not large enough. A-330 cites a few carriers that have ordered the A-380, I believe total sales so far is hovering around 100 or so. Airbus will have to sell over 500 and some estimate closer to one thousand to break even on the cost of developing this jet. Point two, If Boeing was to compete head to head with the A-380 both companies would split what little market there is for such a Jet and insure that they would both lose Billions of Dollars. Just read about the DC-10 and L-1011, Lockheed and Douglas aren’t in the business anymore because of poor market forecasts. Boeing has conceeded the Ultra-large-jet market to the A-380, and is betting that airlines would rather buy more smaller efficient jets like the 7E7. Only time will tell who is right.
By: T5 - 13th March 2003 at 21:17
They are not released too close to one another, but since these are the only relatively big plans for these giant manufacturers, I thought I’d ask.
The first A380 is due in 2006 (I think) with the 7E7 not taking orders until next year, being rolled out 4 years later in 2008.
By: mongu - 13th March 2003 at 20:24
The 787 would presumably be competing with the A330.
By the time it is available, the 330 will be mature, well established and there will presumably be new versions (330-400, 330-500?) under development with flight deck commonality.
I think only the Boeing diehards will be interested in a 787.
By: keltic - 13th March 2003 at 19:53
ALWAYS AIRBUS:)
By: MapleLeaf_330 - 13th March 2003 at 19:51
Yes, I agree that the A380 will be up and running first; however, I really don’t see why we are placing them in competition with each other. Both aircraft (seem) targetted at different markets. In my mind the B7E7 is chiefly for north Atlantic routes and perhaps some Asian routes (I could be wrong). The A380 on the other hand seems to be looking at long haul over a very wide distance and high density, such as: Cape Town-London, Singapore-London, Los Angeles-Sydney. The only medium haul route I can see the A380 on is NYC-London/Paris/Frankfurt, or the middle-east to Europe. Otherwise, I think that you would use smaller aircraft.
Also, I think that Boeing is focussing on US customers, UA, AA, NW, etc. for trans-Atlantic and trans-continental traffic. They are having enough trouble filling 777’s let alone A380s, though hopefully their fortunes will have turned around by then.
Don’t forget that Boeing is hurting financially, perhaps they don’t have the resources at the moment to undertake production of a brand new aircraft the likes of A380 with Airbus so early out of the gate. Like Andrew said, it would take quite a while to get any new project off of the ground of any magnitude.
By: Selsport69 - 13th March 2003 at 19:45
Boeing seems to be struggling quite abit now as Airbus seems to steaming ahead. In my view from a passenger point of view there is not much between them it all depends on how the airline want to set out their cabins.
By: A330Crazy - 13th March 2003 at 19:39
AIRBUS!
No doubt out of these products, the A380 and the B7E7, the 380 will knock the 7E7 of the rails! So many orders have now been put in for the 380.
The 7E7, is a relitively new idea isn’t it?, where as the 380 has been planned for a long time.
With the 380, you have got ordersfrom:
Virgin
SIA
South African
Emirates
FedEx
Qantas
Air France
And these are just what I can remeber at the moment. And perhaps an order from China on the way? The production of the 380 has already begun, where as the 7E7 design, is still technically a drawing board idea.
By the time Boeing get the 7E7 idea into production, most prpbably the first A380 will have been rolled out?
By: T5 - 13th March 2003 at 17:09
As far as I know, it’s not meant to be a replacement, it’s just slightly cheaper to run than the 767-300 which is near enough the same size.
By: Pembo330 - 13th March 2003 at 14:18
I would suggest its Airbus.
Just a quick question; is the 7E7 supposed to be replacing the 757 or 767, or is it supposed to be complimentary?
By: MapleLeaf_330 - 13th March 2003 at 14:14
Everything is cyclical. Boeing was the major player for so long, now it’s looking to Airbus in certain markets. The companies have a different outlook on what future demands will be. Time will tell who is more on the mark. In my opinion the will divide market share evenly for some time to come.
By: KabirT - 13th March 2003 at 07:51
Whats there to decide…7E7 wont do Boeing a percent good….Boeing will just make a mockery of there experience.
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March 13, 2003 at 1:06 am