THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER DEBATE

If China wants to invade Taiwan their best “aircraft carrier” will be China itself…..

china is rarely into UN participation and i doubt that stance will change anytime soon.

Only reason i would see china build carrier is for PR purpose and even then it would possibly be rebuilt something like varyag with an indigenous fighter like FT2000 or J-10.

Thats my point, they could build one for national prestige and political leverage. STOVL would be the easiest, quickest and cheapest way to do it.

How do u suggest China can protect any carrier from a fleet of 120 orions or RoC’s 300 F-16/Mirage fitted with harpoons.

Don’t start any wars 😉 or use the 100+ fighters which I suggested would operate from it 🙂

SteveO

If it builds STOVL supercarriers like I have suggested, it should use them like the USA does. They would sail the world showing the Chinese flag and demonstrating their ambitions, participation in UN operations would strengthen their standing in international politics.

china is rarely into UN participation and i doubt that stance will change anytime soon. Anyway main reason USN adopted carriers as did RN was because of their colonies/territories they had 1000 of kms from their mainland same doesnt hold true with china.

I didnt mean first strike as first strike but conterattack. Chinese carrier will easily be sunk by a counterattack because of a close proximity to her rivals. How do u suggest China can protect any carrier from a fleet of 120 orions or RoC’s 300 F-16/Mirage fitted with harpoons. That said more or less PLAN is still geared to fight RoC so a carrier doesnt really suite that purpose and will be more of liability than a asset.

Only reason i would see china build carrier is for PR purpose and even then it would possibly be rebuilt something like varyag with an indigenous fighter like FT2000 or J-10.

edit:latest image of varyag?
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=79143

If China were to cooperate with Russia on a modern version of the Yak-41M I would build 30,000t+ LHDs to base them on. That would fit very well with what they are focusing on… invading Taiwan. It would introduce them to naval aviation without taking money away from the main goal.

Russia will also no doubt go down in size if they build a replacement for Admiral Kuznetsov. Perhaps STOVL will be of interest again?

I don’t think LHDs would be the best option for invading Taiwan, airborne forces and maybe Wing In Ground effect (WIG) amphibious assault craft would be less vulnerable to attack.

Whats the distance between China and Taiwan? 200km?

Having said that, they would be a very good decoy if used like the USN amphibious forces in the first Gulf war, and they would be very useful after the initial assault too.

If China built a STOVL carrier, what type of aircraft would it carry? The Harrier isnt in production any more………I dont believe any are available to them on the 2nd hand market………..I’m sure the US wouldn’t sell them VSTOL F-35s…….so they would have to develope there own aircraft….poss based on the YAK-141……..I just don’t see that happening……..

Here is post 52 again to answer your questions. Its only a ‘What if…’ idea.

OK, nobody seems that impressed by the advanced STOVL Yak fighter idea so far, but have a think about this possibility.

China and Russia get together to develop the STOVL Yak, it is armed with the latest weapons they can produce and has decent performance and capabilities.

China begins building a fleet of low cost, basic design aircraft carriers based on ultra large cargo ships capable of operating 100+ Yaks.

Although still not a match for the full capabilities of the USN, China has dramatically shifted the balance of power in the Pacific with relatively little effort.

Pic of possible advanced Yak STOVL

If China built a STOVL carrier, what type of aircraft would it carry? The Harrier isnt in production any more………I dont believe any are available to them on the 2nd hand market………..I’m sure the US wouldn’t sell them VSTOL F-35s…….so they would have to develope there own aircraft….poss based on the YAK-141……..I just don’t see that happening……..

china still doesnt have capability to protect a carrier as i mentioned before its naval bases are dangerous close to rivals, RoC or Japan can easily take out most of its vessels if they were to launch a first strike. Also PLAN lacks airborne assests i mean only decent helo they have is 8 ka-28s hardly enough if you are planning operate carriers.

China wants to become a economic super power, its not going to do this if it goes to war with its best customers.

If it builds STOVL supercarriers like I have suggested, it should use them like the USA does. They would sail the world showing the Chinese flag and demonstrating their ambitions, participation in UN operations would strengthen their standing in international politics.

Just because they can’t equal the USNs capabilities doesn’t make them useless, any country launching a first strike against China would be committing a illegal act of war and risking nuclear retaliation.

If China were to cooperate with Russia on a modern version of the Yak-41M I would build 30,000t+ LHDs to base them on. That would fit very well with what they are focusing on… invading Taiwan. It would introduce them to naval aviation without taking money away from the main goal.

Russia will also no doubt go down in size if they build a replacement for Admiral Kuznetsov. Perhaps STOVL will be of interest again?

The 2 CVFs will be built as STOVL carriers which can be converted to CTOL carriers if necessary. If 1 CVF was converted to a CTOL carrier and the other kept STOVL, I’m pretty sure maintenance costs would be higher for the CTOL CVF. Catapults and arrestor gear require regular maintenance, ski jumps do not.

cost of maintaining arrestor and catapult its hardly much the main cost is actual weight and cost of installing such mechanison. But than more than makes for the improved capability for example F-35C will have 60% more range and payload than 35B not to mention CTOL will be able to embark AEW aircrafts.

Srbin

The Yak-141 did not seem as maneuverable or as fast as the Mig-29K would’ve been, however the Yak-141 had it’s radar and in BVR combat it would’ve been no sitting duck. It’s payload I think was smaller than that of Mig-29K too. However since it requires less space and such, wouldnt have the Gorshkov for example carried more Yak-141s due to it’s S/VTOL capabilities?

maybe but not much, but there overhead cost of having justify the cost to maintain a new platform for the IN, i mean no one else would have operated yak-141 not even the russian navy. Main reason i believe mig-29 was chosen over rafael was because the former was already operated by IAF.

SteveO

Although still not a match for the full capabilities of the USN, China has dramatically shifted the balance of power in the Pacific with relatively little effort.

china still doesnt have capability to protect a carrier as i mentioned before its naval bases are dangerous close to rivals, RoC or Japan can easily take out most of its vessels if they were to launch a first strike. Also PLAN lacks airborne assests i mean only decent helo they have is 8 ka-28s hardly enough if you are planning operate carriers.

China will do what it wants, this is just an idea of mine (although I think I read it in a book too, ‘Invasion’ by Eric L. Harry I think).

STOVL is just a quicker and easier way for China to get supercarriers, they could carry 100+ Yak fighters or, just as easily, 100+ helicopters with a 1000 troops for UN peace keeping operations.

I don’t think China would build these supercarriers for the sole purpose of waging war against the USA. They would build them as status symbols of their growing power.

If China wanted STOVL carriers wouldn’t it make sense to go the LHD route and build large CTOL/CATOBAR carriers also?

Well unless they build a lot more Type 052C/Ds and build up thier ASW capabilities these carriers will be just so many deepwater reef’s 😀

Daniel

If a war broke out this would probably be true, but in peacetime they would be a powerful political tool.

Apart from the hot gas ingestion problem, I think the seperate lift jet is better than a shaft driven lift fan. I would have thought that a lift jet would be cheaper, lighter, more powerful and easier to maintain than a shaft driven lift fan installation, but the JSF program seems to think otherwise.

Anyway, lets get back to talking about aircraft carriers.

Although the proposed Chinese ultra large aircraft carrier might not be a match for a USN carrier battle group in combat, it could still sail the worlds oceans at leisure showing the world the future potential of China. It would be a powerful political and diplomatic weapon at least.

But not an actual military weapon 😉 And rather overkill for the sort of humanitarian type work the harrier carriers get used for.

Daniel

Apart from the hot gas ingestion problem, I think the seperate lift jet is better than a shaft driven lift fan. I would have thought that a lift jet would be cheaper, lighter, more powerful and easier to maintain than a shaft driven lift fan installation, but the JSF program seems to think otherwise.

Anyway, lets get back to talking about aircraft carriers.

Although the proposed Chinese ultra large aircraft carrier might not be a match for a USN carrier battle group in combat, it could still sail the worlds oceans at leisure showing the world the future potential of China. It would be a powerful political and diplomatic weapon at least.

OK, nobody seems that impressed by the advanced STOVL Yak fighter idea so far, but have a think about this possibility.

China and Russia get together to develop the STOVL Yak, it is armed with the latest weapons they can produce and has decent performance and capabilities.

China begins building a fleet of low cost, basic design aircraft carriers based on ultra large cargo ships capable of operating 100+ Yaks.

Although still not a match for the full capabilities of the USN, China has dramatically shifted the balance of power in the Pacific with relatively little effort.

Well unless they build a lot more Type 052C/Ds and build up thier ASW capabilities these carriers will be just so many deepwater reef’s 😀

Daniel

It did have one impressive feature, the twistable nozzle. This has been reused by the Americans on the V/STOL JSF. If it had been introduced into service in the early nineties it would probably have been the state-of-the-art V/STOL aircraft for the 15-20 years it took to get the V/STOL JSF operational. This doesn’t mean that it would have sold well though.

I like the stealth sketch. If they could connect the lifting fan to the main engine instead of running on a separate engine it could be an intersting rival.

OK, nobody seems that impressed by the advanced STOVL Yak fighter idea so far, but have a think about this possibility.

China and Russia get together to develop the STOVL Yak, it is armed with the latest weapons they can produce and has decent performance and capabilities.

China begins building a fleet of low cost, basic design aircraft carriers based on ultra large cargo ships capable of operating 100+ Yaks.

Although still not a match for the full capabilities of the USN, China has dramatically shifted the balance of power in the Pacific with relatively little effort.

Pic of possible advanced Yak STOVL

The Yak-141 did not seem as maneuverable or as fast as the Mig-29K would’ve been, however the Yak-141 had it’s radar and in BVR combat it would’ve been no sitting duck. It’s payload I think was smaller than that of Mig-29K too. However since it requires less space and such, wouldnt have the Gorshkov for example carried more Yak-141s due to it’s S/VTOL capabilities?

Dunno about that, the Yak-141 wasn’t that much smaller IIRC a little longer but not quite as wide, spanwise. The radar antennae is little smaller which does cut down on range a little. Also only four underwing pylons is quite a cutback from the MiG-29s underwing and under fuselage points. Think I’d still go with the STOBAR if I could.

Daniel

The Yak-141 did not seem as maneuverable or as fast as the Mig-29K would’ve been, however the Yak-141 had it’s radar and in BVR combat it would’ve been no sitting duck. It’s payload I think was smaller than that of Mig-29K too. However since it requires less space and such, wouldnt have the Gorshkov for example carried more Yak-141s due to it’s S/VTOL capabilities?

mostly from reading tidbits here and there this page has some good info on it. navy matters has some good info on cvf costs and maintenance as compared to invincible class. To summarise it maintenence cost is mainly due to the crew size, and while smaller STOVL would be cheaper to build it still maintence cost is only slightly lower than cvf. Since it requires a complement of atleast 1000 where as CVF would require around 1200-1400 (depending on design).

thats big if,even on paper yak-41 wasnt close to matching mig-29 let alone its improved variants.

I though the CVF program was aiming for a crew of about 600? Maybe thats just ships crew with air group personel on top?

Daniel