The Attempted Recovery Of F/S Eric Williams At Gravesend Wharf

Its been over two years since the last post on the recovery of F/S Williams would anyone know if there has been any further developments in regard to the redevelopment of the Gravesend Wharf site etc?

Would anyone have further any news or updates reference the possible of recovery of F/s Eric Williams..

Source? Links?

Moggy

Google ‘body decomposition in acidic soils’ for the science. There are plenty of academic papers giving the nuts and bolts.

As for the particular incident, I’m afraid I don’t recall which Nat Geo I read it in… or precisely when. Worth reading though, I’ll search for it online.

Re-development will require an archaeological assessment to be carried out. Also, if he/the aircraft cannot be recovered then there it is intended there will be an open space left in the development with some kind of memorial.

However, having spoken to the daughter just three weeks ago it remains her VERY strong wish that her father be recovered. These were also the stated wishes of his widow who died a few years ago. The whole project, from the outset, has been merely to honour those wishes.

Hope this helps.

I think we should just leave this poor man alone. When the re-development is complete erect a plaque as close as can be done to the spot and then let him go.

Regards

Source? Links?

Moggy

I am sure you are correct, your experience outweighs mine in these matters by something bigger than infinity.

But if I recall correctly that particular site wasn’t ‘bodies recovered’ and one has to wonder why, even if it was, the earlier recovery teams would leave behind uniform items. I don’t think bomber crews customarily hung their jackets on a hook behind the seat.

Moggy

To be fair Moggy, it’s not unheard of for human remains to dissolve completely in certain soil conditions. There was at least one case in Flanders 15-20 years ago where clothing and personal effects were recovered and the archaeologists only realized they were dealing with someone’s last resting place due to the position of the various items. There were no remains. I can only imagine the effects a high speed plunge from several thousand feet would do to complicate things.

A bomber crash site near me was 2 metres from a major waterway, 4 metres deep, with ordnance found, fuel contamination, some hazardous materials and mixed up with household waste used to fill the crater. It took three weeks, 550,000 euros and some very serious equipment (not to mention a temporary dam), but remains of at least two airmen were recovered, against all expectations. Never say never.

This is more of what i personally like to hear and that is the “never say never attitude”. remember these guys thought for us, up against in some ways impossible odds,so shall we just turn a blind eye and give up or give (outside help a chance) as im sure there are people out there in fact i know there are.. who can give the likes of F/s Williams a chance to be laid to rest in the way he deserves. i am in the real world and appreciate this will be a major challenge but so was the battle that the likes of Eric Williams and co had thought against almighty odds. lets please be more positive…

A bomber crash site near me was 2 metres from a major waterway, 4 metres deep, with ordnance found, fuel contamination, some hazardous materials and mixed up with household waste used to fill the crater. It took three weeks, 550,000 euros and some very serious equipment (not to mention a temporary dam), but remains of at least two airmen were recovered, against all expectations. Never say never.

Good work, not wanting to make the thread take a wander but is there a link to this recovery anywhere?

Back on topic I think the main problem seems to be actually nailing down the exact crash site, due to the many changes to the site that has happened over the past 70 years. I never say never, my endless chasing of the young blonde barmaid at my local is evidence of this…… 😉

Moggy, my own information over many years of involvment in digs is that human remains are not always recognised for what they are especially when a site has been listed as bodies recovered at time of original crash recovery.

I am sure you are correct, your experience outweighs mine in these matters by something bigger than infinity.

But if I recall correctly that particular site wasn’t ‘bodies recovered’ and one has to wonder why, even if it was, the earlier recovery teams would leave behind uniform items. I don’t think bomber crews customarily hung their jackets on a hook behind the seat.

Moggy

the physical work involved with excavating the site with it being so close to the river and the potential discovery of hazardous building material and waste which would need disposing of.

A bomber crash site near me was 2 metres from a major waterway, 4 metres deep, with ordnance found, fuel contamination, some hazardous materials and mixed up with household waste used to fill the crater. It took three weeks, 550,000 euros and some very serious equipment (not to mention a temporary dam), but remains of at least two airmen were recovered, against all expectations. Never say never.

Unfortunately it looks like the recovery of Flight Sergeant Williams is going to be a near enough impossible task due to locating the precise crash site and the physical work involved with excavating the site with it being so close to the river and the potential discovery of hazardous building material and waste which would need disposing of. I know money shouldn’t come into the equation when it comes to recovering our fallen hero’s but surely the money could be better (didn’t want to say better, but couldn’t think of something more suitable.) spent in recovering the remains of service people that are more accessible.

Very interesting report by one closely involved, there comes a time to say enough is enough and I cannot see funding and expertise being available.

And regarding the comment from Moggy,my own information over many years of involvment in digs is that human remains are not always recognised for what they are especially when a site has been listed as bodies recovered at time of original crash recovery.

“Clearly, any future excavation attempt will require permission of the JCCC and the landowner; in view of the pessimistic analysis and findings obtained from the 2007 operation these permissions might not be forthcoming. Even if approved, any further excavation would still have to contend with the enormous ground, water and domestic rubbish in-fill problems already described. Consequently the scale and cost of such an operation may be prohibitive, especially as some of the items buried there in years gone by are now classed as hazardous waste, disposal of which is both complicated and expensive. Even if sufficient resources and financial backing could be obtained, the prospects of success would still be extremely remote.”
—————————————————————————————————————-
“Even if sufficient resources and financial backing could be obtained, the prospects of success would still be extremely remote.”
—————————————————————————————————————-
This may be the case but we all owe it to the likes of F/S Eric Williams to give it maybe one final attempt.

I feel extremely confident that there are organizations out there, that could near on pin point the final resting place of pilot and aircraft. lets hope that the authorities will get together with the likes of, so we can hopefully come to a happy conclusion once and for… i do appreciate though that there is still a long long way to go..

I was subsequently visited in person by Tony Graves of the former London Air Museum who generously offered all of his research material without preconditions.

Ah…. Might this be the same Tony Graves who was able to find not only most or all of the engines of the buried Lancaster in Normandy and retrieve jackets and other personal effects from the cockpit area miraculously without turning up any human remains whatsoever?

Obviously with a track record like that he’d be a great asset to the recovery of lost aircrew like F/Sgt Williams.

Moggy

Always interesting to see the other side of such a contested debate. There’s lots here that I didn’t know and doesn’t appear to be common knowledge amongst the ‘experts’. Yes, thanks for sharing.

Thanks for sharing this.

Dear All,

I have just been given a copy of a report into the Gravesend Excavation(s) written by Wg Cdr Lainchbury. In the interests of completeness it is copied below.
I have no axe to grind, I have never been to Gravesend, but I do have an archaeology degree.”

The Gravesend Excavation 2007

Research into the location of the crash site in early 2007 was conducted by Lewis Deal MBE of the Rochester based Medway Aircraft Preservation Society (MAPS). Accordingly, Lewis acted as Licence Holder for the first excavation. As is widely known, the riverside area in question was extensively redeveloped post war making photographic comparisons almost impossible and undermining most eye witness reports. Moreover, the entire site was laid to concrete in the 1960s which has frustrated searchers ever since.

Initially, my role as the then Commandant of the MOD Fire School at Manston, was to provide on-site security, a media handling team and a RAF Guard of Honour for the removal of FS Williams’ remains, if found. However, following a meeting with the MOD Innsworth based Joint Casualty & Compassionate Cell (JCCC) and the landowner, it was agreed that MOD Manston would also provide fire appliances and static pumps in order to deal with the anticipated water management problems associated with a site situated so close to the River Thames. Subsequent to this meeting I obtained the full cooperation of the Chatham based Royal Engineers (RE) who offered to provide the necessary heavy digging equipment. This led to a welcome offer of assistance from the Defence Science & Technology Laboratory (DSTL) based at Fort Halstead who provided state of the art ground penetrating radar and magnetometers. We also had the Joint Aircraft Recovery & Transportation Squadron (JARTS) from MOD St Athan on hand to deal with the actual recovery if we were successful in locating and accessing the wreck. Finally, I was able to enlist the support of the RAF Coningsby based Battle of Britain Memorial Flight (BBMF) who provided an outstanding televised fly past by one of their Hurricanes during the first excavation.

Central to the decision to excavate at the spot chosen was the ‘hole in the roof’ theory which is based on a 1941 aerial photograph that by chance shows damage to the roof of Barton’s Timber Wharf. Several reports mention the falling aircraft causing damage to Barton’s so the obvious connection was drawn, not only by Lewis Deal but also by several previous researchers. Armed with this photograph (copies of which can be purchased from English Heritage) and Google Earth, it is comparatively easy to fix the former location of the damaged area. With DSTL having accurately surveyed the site, and with two distinct anomalies found, the stage was set for the first attempt in July 2007.

Unfortunately no trace of the aircraft was found, the two anomalies turning out to be the metal upperworks of an old Thames barge which was used for in-fill during the 1960s redevelopment, and the huge barge anchoring chains along the old sea wall which had clearly been buried ‘as was’. The excavation also revealed a massive amount of domestic junk, suggesting that the entire area had been used as a community rubbish tip prior to it being covered in concrete. More worryingly, the water table turned out to be a bigger challenge than expected and the pumping operation was unable to keep pace with the rate of ingress once the excavation approached the 4 metre level, even though the operation had been timed to coincide with low tide. Furthermore, the waterlogged ground possessed very little consistency (akin to digging a hole on the beach below the high water mark) and the frequent collapses of the by now massive excavation’s sides rendered the operation increasingly hazardous, the very same reason why the original recovery attempt was abandoned in 1940, albeit at a lesser scale. DSTL were, however, able to place their equipment into the deeper recesses of the excavation, but no valid returns were obtained. The operation was therefore terminated.

At this stage it is necessary to mention the conflicting attention that the operation attracted from within the aviation archaeology community. Some correspondents were perfectly sincere and wished us well; others however, became a perfect nuisance through their vociferous demands to be involved. (As a non internet aficionado Lewis Deal was partially shielded from the more outrageous comments, but I am aware that he was shocked by the aggressive tone of some of the mail he subsequently received). I was later shown some astonishing correspondence which suggested that certain individuals were even trying to out manoeuvre each other in a vain quest for primacy and legitimacy. In my view it amounted to little more than immature claim-jumping by potential trophy hunters and I was quite determined that this excavation would not be clouded by accusations of grave robbing as others have been in the past. Here, pride of place must go to the gentleman who informed me that he had been researching this incident for many years, the site was therefore ‘his by default’, and that he would be along forthwith (presumably with gumboots and spade in hand) in order to claim ‘his Hurricane’. I did not reply.

Indeed, I deliberately ignored most of this correspondence for two important reasons: first, no one offered any new evidence regarding the crash location and, second, to invite anyone from this community to join in would have left us (and the MOD) wide open to accusations of favouritism. The JCCC scrupulously tries to maintain absolute neutrality in all of its dealings with aviation archaeologists and it was essential that we maintained that approach. Also, I considered that in our position it was inconceivable for us to embrace anyone who had previously clashed with the MOD in respect of the Protection of Military Remains Act, regardless of their asserted pedigree in this field.

There the matter might have rested, but I was subsequently visited in person by Tony Graves of the former London Air Museum who generously offered all of his research material without preconditions. Having deduced from his research that we had probably missed the right spot by a matter of a few yards, and with both DSTL and the REs keen to make another attempt before the summer was over, we reconvened the team in September of that year. Due to his on-going MAPS projects (including the restoration of the RAFM’s Fairey Battle) Lewis Deal was unable to take part again, so this time I acted as Licence Holder. We were also assisted by the RAF Brampton based Joint Air Reconnaissance & Intelligence Centre (JARIC) who provided us with some valuable computer enhanced imagery of the famous 1941 aerial photograph. As an aside, I would like to thank the un-named enthusiast who sent me his own copy of that photograph which had been ‘photo-shopped’ in order to depict the roof damage as the partial silhouette of a Hurricane (!!) After the experiences of the previous July, on this occasion we excavated the entire site (including much of the area previously covered) to a depth of two metres, just short of the greatest water ingress. Again nothing was found, nor did DSTL locate any relevant targets. On a more positive note, at least the REs were pleased with the Victorian ‘bottle bank’ that emerged.

At this point I was convinced that we had reached the end of the road. However, the story still had a few more interesting twists & turns. Later that year I was contacted by an elderly resident of Gravesend who had been working in the vicinity of Barton’s Wharf on the day of the crash. A former employee of Essex Aero, a manufacturing company with premises adjacent to Barton’s, a previous letter of his to a local newspaper had been overlooked. Having interviewed him at length I am convinced that he is one of only two people who witnessed the sight of the burning wreckage moments after the impact; indeed, at one point he had believed that the tumbling aircraft would fall directly on top of him. His testimony therefore, must rank as unsurpassed.

He revealed that Barton’s Wharf had consisted of several large warehouse type buildings and not merely the one which had become the focus of attention based on the 1941 photograph. Here, he explained that the hole in the roof had actually been caused by a collision with the mast of a Thames barge during stormy weather. Instead, he directed us to the western end of the site where once stood another large wood storage shed owned by Bartons. Try as we might, we could not find any inconsistencies in his recollections or his ability to pinpoint the few surviving reference points. It was therefore extremely disappointing to learn that the genuine impact point lies directly beneath the only warehouse still standing. This structure is in very good order and it is still in use, so there is probably little chance of it being demolished in the short to mid term.

However, during the winter of 2007/8, coincident with a change of leaseholder and while the warehouse was empty, the occupiers kindly agreed to allow DSTL to survey the floor and for the REs to drill bore holes down towards any metallic anomalies that might be found. In turn, this enabled DSTL to lower a magnetometer (courtesy of a few lengths of plastic drainpipe quickly purchased from B&Q!) in order to obtain a clear picture of the ground beneath. Once again however, we were to be disappointed as the only likely returns turned out to be ancient foundry workings. One of the bore holes brought up a number of small bone fragments that were sent to Professor Sue Black and Doctor Xanthe Mallett of Dundee University (more recently known for their History Cold Case TV series), but these turned out to be of animal origin; no doubt the remains of past Sunday dinners. Of the Hurricane (by which I mean the crushed forward section of fuselage including the engine, cockpit and armour which is all that we could have reasonably expected to find), or the inevitable traces of disturbance where it hit and burned, there was simply no sign.

Although the story is frustratingly incomplete, there are two obvious conclusions that can be made:

1) The ‘hole in the roof’ theory based on the 1941 aerial photograph does not deserve further consideration.

2) The point of impact lies beneath the sole surviving warehouse, but the residual mass of wreckage evaded detection. This can only mean that:

It has sunk so deep that it could not be located by DSTL’s equipment and is therefore impossible to recover using conventional means or:

It has already been removed by persons unknown, possibly during redevelopment work in the 1960s (and there are a few unsubstantiated references to that effect still circulating locally) or:

Redevelopment work, including realignment of the nearby sea wall with massive new barriers, has completely obliterated the wreck and spread any remaining parts across the entire site where it is now intermingled with the domestic rubbish. (I did pick up a small fragment of mica which might have come from the aircraft’s battery, but there was nothing else to be found anywhere nearby)

Clearly, any future excavation attempt will require permission of the JCCC and the landowner; in view of the pessimistic analysis and findings obtained from the 2007 operation these permissions might not be forthcoming. Even if approved, any further excavation would still have to contend with the enormous ground, water and domestic rubbish in-fill problems already described. Consequently the scale and cost of such an operation may be prohibitive, especially as some of the items buried there in years gone by are now classed as hazardous waste, disposal of which is both complicated and expensive. Even if sufficient resources and financial backing could be obtained, the prospects of success would still be extremely remote.

As opined by Roger Hatch, HM Coroner who was present during the July 2007 excavation, the unusually corrosive, saline nature of the ground – as evidenced by the very poor condition of some of the discarded objects unearthed – strongly suggests that any human remains will have long since completely deteriorated, rendering any further excavation pointless.

In sum, I hope that this provides a clear appreciation of the substantial attempts to locate the gallant FS Williams and his aircraft made during 2007 and of the remarkable scale of effort involved. I also hope that any conspiracy theorists that have come to believe that the MOD has something to hide in respect of this case, or is somehow deliberately preventing the recovery of FS Williams’ remains are now better informed. Due to the unique and unforgiving nature of the ground, to equate this site with any other land-based crash, and to form selective judgements and opinions based on such a comparison would, in my view, be a serious mistake. I am aware that this account differs in some respects from at least one previously published version but, as I was there and they were not, I leave it to the readership to make up their own minds.

Whether or not this story will ever have a sequel in the years ahead is hard to say; I hope so but somehow I doubt it. FS Williams gave his life for his country in 1940; like so many others who remain ‘Missing’, the very nature of air warfare means that not only may we never know his final resting place, it may well be that, in this case at least, there is actually no final resting place to find.

David Lainchbury
Wing Commander, RAF (retired)
Teddington, Middlesex
December 2011

Signed.

Now at 2052 signatures…

Signed