The Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress being looped

b17

Hi Y’all
Re looping the B17: see comment #25 on this site, I described an incident that happened to a buddy.
In a million years I’d never try a loop, although the plane was a dream to fly. In combat it was able to take much punishment and get back to base. In my buddy’s case it was an accident, he was lucky to survive.

Having read the missives re looping aircraft, the stresses on a loop are not all that great, my C150 Aerobat shows 3.5G in a loop.
The a/c is stressed +6G, -3G therefore + 3.5G is well within design standards and a spin is a 1G manoevre.
When I was training for my ppl One of my instructors looped a C152 without a G meter fitted as it is quite a gentle manouvre.
About 5 years ago I was present when a Fiat G222 was rolled at an airshow but cannot remember where(either Farnbororough or Fairford)

Having read that, I must ask, do you know the limit load factor for the B-17? It is certainly not +6/-3, that is for aerobatic category aeroplanes. A normal C- 150/152 (non-aerobatic version) is stressed to +4.4/-1.52 limit load. A C-172 is normally only +3.5 limit load, but with certain conditions being met (forward C of A) it is also +4.4/-1.52. So, yes, these can be looped safely at the +4.4 limit.
Transport category aircraft today are loaded to +2.5 g limit load. I´ve tried to loop a B-737 simulator, staying within the 2.5 limit during pull up (otherwise the sim will actually break up on pull up), and it is impossible. It will get roughly to the top of the loop before stalling, falling down on it´s back and breaking up when trying to recover.

Looping big aeroplanes is not possible, no matter how hard you try. Some of them (the well built ones) will get home with a lot of damage, the rest will be a smoking hole in the ground. Looping B-17, Lancasters etc. is an urban myth that has nothing to do with reality. If they survived, the pilot would have had brown pants and the aeroplane would never fly again, which would not be a good thing. So maybe the starting question should have been about the aeroplane flying again after a loop. If you loop an aeroplane that size, you will not be able to use it again, so the starting question really should have been about B-17 that looped and were used again. If a B-17, Lancaster, etc, ever looped without becoming smoking holes in the ground, the aeroplane certainly never flew again, which rather defeats the objective!!!!!!

Most aeroplanes can be aileron rolled, and there is no great myth attached. Just build the speed up a little, gently pitch the nose up about 20°, centralize the elevators, apply full aileron with coordinating rudder, and around she goes. If flown well you only induce about 1.2-1.5 g´s (positive, no negative) on the airframe.

B-17, Lancasters, Andovers, F-27 etc. can be rolled safely. Loops, forget it!:eek: 😮

G’ day all!

Great to hear Mr Jules, Sorry it took a while to get back, I have been crook this winter, recovering now, but it knocked the crap outa me.

Nice line up of aeroplane’s Mr Jules mate, Which one did you think was the most fun and nice to fly?.

And have you had a chance to flyin a WW2 bomber Mr Jules since WW2, as there’s a few gettin around in the State’s and elsewhere now day’s.

I think you Mr Jules should at least get a few ride’s for FREE!!

Anyway’s, I must not over do it, I’m crashin ” Gut Nacht ” good moaning, good afternoon all.

Ooooo Rooooo, CIAO!;)

I am so very glad you are still kicking Jules mate!:D 😉

LoL, And I guess you might be just as glad aswell hey!:rolleyes:

Just a quicky Jule’s, what other type’s of aircraft have you flown in your life time ?:confused:

And can you remember the biggest scare you ever had during your flying, In training or combat.

I may have asked that before, sorry if I have Jules, I don’t suffer from Alz, but the Multiple Sclerosis give me plenty of Cognetive problem just the same.

You sound in good spirit’s Jules mate, which is so magic and so damn good to still see at your end of the big 100 numbers.

Thank’s in advance Jules, Ciao for now :dev2:

My worst scare was when the plane directly in front of me exploded. 1/2 second later we went through the debris and smoke

I started with a J3 Piper Cub, Stearman PT 17 (?), Vultee BT13, Cessna AT 10. B17 transition, then a crew with about 120 hours in U.S. before going to N.Africa 450 combat hours

Aside from my creaking bones and slow pace I’m fine, since I got through my abdominable aneurism surgery last August, and the staph infection that took 4 1/2 moths to clear up. I guess my luck is still holding. In a million years I never thought I’d get this far.

G’ day Jules mate!

I am so very glad you are still kicking Jules mate!:D 😉

LoL, And I guess you might be just as glad aswell hey!:rolleyes:

Just a quicky Jule’s, what other type’s of aircraft have you flown in your life time ?:confused:

And can you remember the biggest scare you ever had during your flying, In training or combat.

I may have asked that before, sorry if I have Jules, I don’t suffer from Alz, but the Multiple Sclerosis give me plenty of Cognetive problem just the same.

You sound in good spirit’s Jules mate, which is so magic and so damn good to still see at your end of the big 100 numbers.

Thank’s in advance Jules, Ciao for now :dev2:

Hi Guys,

I don’t get to this site too often, just want to say hello. Any questions re: the wartime B17, I still don’t have Alzheimers,

I made a comment on page 1 nusual antics of a B17

Depends how hard you pull.

:diablo: The Extras doing the Red Bull series pull upwards of 6 to 8 g,s in the Immelman turn.

Looping forces

Having read the missives re looping aircraft, the stresses on a loop are not all that great, my C150 Aerobat shows 3.5G in a loop.
The a/c is stressed +6G, -3G therefore + 3.5G is well within design standards and a spin is a 1G manoevre.
When I was training for my ppl One of my instructors looped a C152 without a G meter fitted as it is quite a gentle manouvre.
About 5 years ago I was present when a Fiat G222 was rolled at an airshow but cannot remember where(either Farnbororough or Fairford)

Me Me Me again please Sir!!!

Ok G’day all 😀 ,

Very crook here, alsort’s of bother and on top one hell of a ripper blooody virus.

Ok THE Sir Smithy 😮

Looped the old Cross right over one of Tony’s Fokker factory’s, after the staff had just done a total reco on her, they were all watching Smithy put her through her pace’s.

Smithy got it all done for free, no cost as he and Tony got on real well for some reason…….not sure why ? 😀 :rolleyes:

Oh, and when Smithy was asked why he looped the Cross, He said Avro test pilot’s had told him they did it all the time in the Avro 10 clone’s 😮 .

After that he said he was just dying to give it a go, and said the Cross just felt so good that day, all tricked up again, and his blood was up, so he just came roaring across the field quiet low and just went for it!!:D

Gotta luv us crazy like a cut snake aussie’s hey!:p

Let’s roll the Cross out again one more time:) , and do a loop in honour of the mad Sir Smithy!! 😀 😀 😀

And yes I do remember reading a lot about the 47, handled more like a fighter then bomber 😎

Early day’s a few 47’s shead their wing’s, as hot shot test pilot’s pushed it just that bit too far.

I can sort of guess what the pilot must have thought, as he pulled the 47 up hard to loop it, after beating up the field at high speed.

Somewhere getting near the top of the loop, both wing tip’s met each other and did a clap and hand shake 😮 :rolleyes: .

I bet he said :dev2: FFFFFFAAAAAARRRRRRRRKKKKKKKKK:dev2: , OH MUMMIE! 😮

Gotta crash, coughing me head off and feel like death on leg’s 🙁

” Gut Nacht “, good moaning, good after noon all .

Ooooo Roooo from Oz!;)

B47 Loop

I have just checked the B47 chapter in Tex Johnston’s autobio ‘Jet -Age Test Pilot’ and he describes looping a B47 at Carswell AFB with the Air Force secretary aboard.
The first one starting in the pattern near a B36 and topping out at 12000′
The second topping out at 16000′ .
He also describes doing 3 consecutive barrell rolls after take off from Witchita during his last flight in the YB47 before it went to Wright Field.

If a loop is done properly its only a 2G manoevre, you can stress aircraft a lot worse than that just by bad flying

Rolling WW11 bombers

[B]Plt/Off.John Jordan (Late owner of Stearman G-AROY, & famous breakfast food producer) deliberately rolled an RAF Wellington whilst flying alongside the Lancaster from which he was photgraphed, I have a copy of the pic. whilst flying upside down which he personally sent me some years ago.— if I had a scanner I would ‘post it’ , but I’m not really into those things!!!

He was a great aviator who delighted trying to put some ‘zip’ into the RAF flying manuals, & from time to time found himselt called in front of ‘those in charge’. —-& he lived to ‘a ripe old age’

Dustyone{B]

Stupidity…

In my experience it’s not just aircrew who do stupid things! At one station we had an electronics mec who would warm his hands using the J-band radar…

…Flight B17, letting the Fort draw ahead then pouring on the coals and doing a big barrel roll with the Fort at it’s axis! If true, what a great showoff stunt! 😮 Adrian

Back in the mid 1960s at Yeovilton, which was used as a V bomber (Vulcan) dispersal airfield, there was the story of a Sea Vixen pilot who allowed a visiting Vulcan start his take off run and the Vixen, having done power checks on the taxi-way, rolled out directly onto the runway and hared off after the Vulcan.

As the Vulcan lifted off the already airborne Vixen with undercarriage retracted carried out a victory roll around the Vulcan as they both climbed out, then the Vixen pointed to the sky and climbed quickly away.

ISTR that the Vixen pilot was Eagles and that the Vulcan pilot refused to return until assured that Eagle’s Vixen was back on the deck.

Yukons anyone?

Had a brief conversation with my uncle (ex-RCAF) last week wherein he mentioned doing some interesting things with Yukons (with loads on board!) while transiting the Atlantic – said the rolls definitely tested the cargo tie-downs. I can’t quite remember whether he mentioned loops or not.

So, it looks like with the B-17 it is probably not a good idea to loop. If you survive one, the A/C is structurally totaled.

So what is the largest A/C that has/can be safely looped? I recently saw a film in which they looped a Ford Tri-Motor. Pretty amazing!

handling machines

I suppose many of you have seen a car on its roof or side having left the road at a bend. Many of these belonged to locals who knew the road.They became over confident. They knew that they could get around that bend at a certain speed. But they overlooked the changing conditions.For a car that mostly relates to the road surface.

Once you take to the air , the variables become many and those who work close to the limits are very careful ie test pilots.Aircraft should be operated within the limits of the design and pilot skills. Very few pilots have the skills to perform aerobatic displays at lower levels where pride can override the need to abandon a display when the weather gets worse or others fly into the display area. And if the correct position, height and speed is not as planned a prudent pilot breaks off and repositions.

Trying to loop any “big bird” is just not a good idea, especially if the airframe is 60 years old and they couldn’t when they were young. A roll is a different matter all together, just make sure you have the altitude. i recall a film clip of a fellow flying a B-52 “aggressively”, 90 degree bank a 100′ altitude…..he touched a wingtip and that was it!

Even my flight sim will yell overspeed and tear my wings off if I fly too aggressively (unless I turn that silly reality thing off! Unlimited ammo and gas!).

seen that film, the pilot was being daft, there was a large buildup of stupid maneuvers before he ended up crashing it, essentially he was flying it like a fighter aircraft, i think he ended up clearing a ridge in the desert at full whack at something like 50 feet. i have been told that the crash was due to him stalling the port wing as he came through a bank which ended up being more than 90 degrees, you can see that after a point in the film the port wing drops significantly. When you also consider that large aircraft like that don’t have ailerons, they have spoilerons or whatever they are called, i have been told that they just don’t have the surface or generate the force required to completely roll an aircraft let alone recover one from a steep bank in the B52 that the colonel was flying. :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7aLEKBlhNk

here’s the video, if you listed to the commentary from the newsreader, it seems that the crash was inevitable due to manner in which the pilot was flying her.

Also check in this thread

Some more fun in this one…http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=58366&highlight=Rolling+Lanc
😀

The aircraft in Bravo Two Zero was I think a Boeing 727 . I believe an RNZAF Andover was rolled deliberately just for fun , the crew almost got away with it . There is a medium sized military twin that is current on the display curcuit which is rolled as part of its normal display routine , I think it was at the Avalon display earlier this year in Melbourne that during it roll one engine failed , the pilot complrted the roll , turned and lexecuted an emergency landing back on the runway he had just left and many of the crowd were unaware that an emergency had just occured.