The Crusades…

Spot on Charlie.
The crusades were a response to Islamic invasion that is historical fact, but the Islamic invasion comes after Judea-Roman activity which comes after… etc. etc.

Eventually you get back to the first bloke, or woman, hitting the second bloke, or woman, over the head with a rock.

To try and take the high ground merely ensures the cycle keeps repeating.

The current Islamic nutters are vile and need to be stood up to. Having said that I don’t like the look of the Christian fundamentalist nutters in the US any more.

I have watched the video and read thus far. As with any “what if” scenario there are as many arguments as there are permutations of possible events so little purpose seems to be served in pursuing the hypothesis.

It seems to be that the Roman, and latterly all Western orthodoxies, have been on a collision course with various forms of Islam for 1500 years and what is happening now is merely a continuum of that process.

Fair points.

I suppose my concerns were raised by visiting the forum, after a weeks absence, and finding two posts by yourself that seemed to have a somewhat common theme: ‘the crusades were self-defence’ and ‘how Muslim rapists are destroying Germany’. It seemed to me that you may be trying to make a connection? My apologies if I have got the wrong impression.

I withdraw my suggestions of xenophobia / racism.

I stand by my contention that it is impossible to prove, and difficult to argue, that European history could have been any more ‘hellish’ had the Crusades not taken place! 🙂

I’m sorry, there is material concerning the Crusade that shows that Europe was under threat from the east for 4oo years before Western Europe decided enough was enough and consolidated the Western countries forces to stop eastern intervention into Christian land.

But whenever the Crusades are brought up, it’s always portrayed as the beginning of Western imperialism, and was nothing to do with stopping a Muslim invasion.

Atrocities were committed by the Western armies, but they are mild to what the Eastern armies committed in the name of Islam, but none of this is brought up, as it is a “Bad idea to mention this as it is still a sensitive topic in the Muslim ” world. (bucannee66 )

We’re always the bad guy’s it seems, and this is a particular part of World History that needs to have all the good and bad from both side shown.

I use YT because there is information out there that’s far easier to use and show than otherwise copying huge articles from books, if someone disagrees with what I’ve shown, perhaps if they take offence they might like to point out why the information shown is not true.

Do you think what I put up is not correct, that it’s all fantasy?

So that’s it then? You post a couple of inflammatory YouTube videos and then when nobody jumps to support your ‘right thinking’ views you resort to mild insults?

I’m sorry but nobody but you seems to have ‘confided’ their inner most thoughts; all anybody has done is not agree with your own thoughts that seem to be xenophobic at best, and racist at worst.

And there you have it Gentlemen, to confide your inner most thoughts, that shout succinctly just what makes you both tick, all neatly tied up in a little parcel of your own making…

Thank you both for making it so clear.

Oh, and with both talking so much about YouTube, reminded me, I saw this today and immediately thought of you both…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcF9JSxkUSE

Enjoy! 🙂

Best regards

Stu.

When people post youtube videos as evidence supporting their position you kinda know that their position isn’t really worth paying much attention to if you are capable of thought.
Still it won’t stop the great unwashed taking such as absolute evidence.

(The exceptions would be when those videos are produced by an accountable entity)

Well, I sat through twenty minutes of your sixteen-year-old German girl YouTube video, and didn’t learn much, and there are literally thousands of videos on YouTube, even if you restrict the subject matter (loosely) to immigrants or Islam, now am I supposed to sit through all of these before I enter the debate you started…

…or just the ones that support your position?

By the way, I didn’t know Stalin was a Muslim!

Oh CD, how can you start a debate if you can’t even be bothered to sit and watch a 30 minute video…

60million in 2 World wars isn’t that bad against Stalin who got rid of between 39 – 50 million killed between 1924-53, excluding wartime casualties…

But whose counting, not you, probably with an attention span of less than 30 minutes must make it very hard to concentrate and take in data, I suppose you only played singles when you were younger, as an LP must of caused untold stress…

Do I think that an Islamic Europe would have been better? I don’t know but I’ll say this: being ‘better’ than leaving sixty million dead in two world wars, and all the associated suffering, isn’t exactly setting the bar very high is it?

No, I didn’t watch (all of) the videos. It was that droning, articulate, patronising tone that put me off; the same droning patronising tone that there is in all those YouTube videos that think that the Bible is proof of the existence of (a Christian) god.

Yep, definitely!

European History & the Worlds, would have been drastically different, or do you think an Islamic Europe would have turned out for the better?

Have you actually watched the video’s……

If you’re going to imagine that fundamental a change to history you cannot take anything for granted.

Let’s assume that ‘the Crusades’ hadn’t ended ‘Islamic expansion’ into Europe…

….so, would World War One have happened? What about World War Two?

Would the ‘hell’ of Islam entering Europe be worse than the hell of two world wars?

Bad idea to mention this as it is still a sensitive topic in the Muslim world.

If it wasn’t for the Crusades the whole of Europe would be Islamic, the Arabs started their own Crusade against the Christian world at the beginning of the 7th century and continued until the combined Western countries, or Christendom defeated the Islamic hordes in the 11th century…

Europe didn’t instigate the Wars it was Islam, the Crusades were started after 400 years of Islamic expansion into Europe.

We shouldn’t apologise for the Crusades, it kick started Western civilisation, can you imaging what Hell it would be now if Islam had been allowed to enter Europe.

Stu.

Bad idea to mention this as it is still a sensitive topic in the Muslim world.

I second that…

Really? :confused:

Wrong forum.

Really? 🙂

Wrong forum.

Let’s have a chat about the great LTV F-8 Crusader…much more fun…and useful in the long run.

Must confess I mis-read the thread title and clicked, thinking this was about the (Jazz) Crusaders – Joe Sample et al – but it’s some sad mother droning on about Muslims. Disappointing.