The end of cameras onboard a flight ???

The UK aviation industry has had enough expansion and movement in the last couple of years to allow people to move fairly freely. Personally I find it shocking that some people can happily work for a company with (in my opinion) such a crass approach to their customers as Ryanair does. The money may be good and the lifestyle may mean nights at home but is it really worth selling your soul to the devil when you remember what this airline allegedly did to the Buzz staff. I hope the currently contented employees can remember how happy they are now when in the future they are considered an unneccessary commodity and tossed aside with no regard. As I said in my opening sentence, the opportunities exist to escape to more compassionate employers. If the opportunity is not taken then it’s hard to be sympathetic later. You makes your bed and then you lie in it!

I agree with Skymonster’s comments.

I would never fly with FR, I just do not like the sound of them. I like to be allocated a seat when I check in, not this FR system which sounds like a free-for-all to me and a total lottery as to where you will sit.

There are other low cost carriers which receive more positive customer comments than FR so I do not understand why people insist on flying with them and then do nothing but complain.

People fly with the established full service carriers because they want something different to what FR offers – ie service. People in Ireland were not happy when Aer Lingus went down the cheap and tatty route, all they had to choose from in terms of Irish airlines was EI and FR. People paid extra because they wanted service on EI and then they go the tacky way.

Maybe the problem started when we stopped caring about our fellows in the industry?

On the contrary, I and the likes of Skymonster and Wysiwyg are very concerned about our “fellows in the industry”, both inside and outside of Ryanair, who are affected by the the likes of M.O’L and his complete lack of regard for them or the industry they choose to work in.

1L.

So you are quite happy to see loads of people, with families and youngsters with dreams, all unemployed? You obviously haven’t experienced this yourself. Having experienced this myself, I think your comments are a disgrace.

Yes I have worked in airlines, and yes I have been made redundant. Despite that, I still think that the airline industry overall, and in particular the people who work within it, would have been far better off right now if Ryanair had never existed.

Andy

Moderator Comment

So long as they observe the Code Of Conduct set out by the site owners, everyone is entitled to express their opinion in here – even those whose opinions you disagree with or simply don’t like.

If you regard that as poor moderation, then you are more than welcome to make your feelings known to the Webmaster by PM or by e-mail. Complaints about moderation should not be made on open forums, and any further such comments will be considered off-topic and will be treated accordingly.

GA

Have been fortunate enough to avoid redundancy in my 16 year aviation career (although a very close call after 911) but also in full support of Skymonsters post.

I would love to know what the shareholders make of MOL’s happiness to squander a million quid in damages and costs after the fiasco he pulled trying to persecute the pilots on the REPA website. The Judge was very public stating how horrified he was with MOL and Ryanairs management principles.

What worries me most is how some people can be happy with the prospect of the Ryanair principle of setting the standard at the lowest common denominator. Standards-wise, the only way is down. I understand the low cost model is here to stay but dare I say it, even easyJet seems to have some morals rather than solely being interested in making a cheap buck.

You talk of morals? Maybe the problem started when we stopped caring about our fellows in the industry? Hell even I wonder about our own management principles, never mind Ryanair but I would not want to see junior staff members unemployed because of it??

I’ve been made redundant three times, twice by airlines going under, and for what it’s worth I agree with every word of Skymonsters last post.

1L.

Well you are no better than him then, and it is a very sad day when people in the industry support the idea of people being unemployed. No wonder the industry is in such a mess. But we digress from my original point which was poor moderating standards. Address the cause and not the symptom.

Have been fortunate enough to avoid redundancy in my 16 year aviation career (although a very close call after 911) but also in full support of Skymonsters post.

I would love to know what the shareholders make of MOL’s happiness to squander a million quid in damages and costs after the fiasco he pulled trying to persecute the pilots on the REPA website. The Judge was very public stating how horrified he was with MOL and Ryanairs management principles.

What worries me most is how some people can be happy with the prospect of the Ryanair principle of setting the standard at the lowest common denominator. Standards-wise, the only way is down. I understand the low cost model is here to stay but dare I say it, even easyJet seems to have some morals rather than solely being interested in making a cheap buck.

So you are quite happy to see loads of people, with families and youngsters with dreams, all unemployed? You obviously haven’t experienced this yourself.
Having experienced this myself, I think your comments are a disgrace.

I’ve been made redundant three times, twice by airlines going under, and for what it’s worth I agree with every word of Skymonsters last post.

1L.

all airlines have no control over airport security and rightly so

Indeed if FR had a say no doubt there would be discount for nudists with no hand luggage as they could not, easily, be concealing any weapons.

OK, so to reitterate. I don’t want to see Ryanair have an accident, I don’t want to see anyway hurt. But I would like to see the demise of Ryanair and whilst I doubt that will happen, I firmly believe that at some time in the future their style will have to change or their business will turn down – its just a matter of time, which IMHO can’t come too soon.

Andy

So you are quite happy to see loads of people, with families and youngsters with dreams, all unemployed? You obviously haven’t experienced this yourself.
Having experienced this myself, I think your comments are a disgrace.

OK, let me clear this up seeing as its come up again.

Firstly, I do NOT hope Ryanair bend an aeroplane – far from it. But even the man himself said that one of the things that could damage his business was a major accident.

The airline industry is cyclic, and just as service levels have gone up, down, up and down again within the “frills” airlines in response to economics and customer demand, I believe that sooner or later the pendulum will start to swing against Ryanair either because people tire of their way of operating and their service levels, or because (and again I emphasise I don’t want to see it happen) of an incident that darkens customer thinking about the no-frills space. The no-frills space won’t go away, but the boyancy that it currently enjoys will diminish at some time, I’m certain. Ryanair may be able to find more gullible punters (and thus maintain some growth) by moving out of existing markets and developing new ones, but I believe at some time in the future its current core business in the UK and near western Europe will turn downwards.

Its worth adding that as a passenger I am not totally against the low-cost/no-frills airline space. I don’t enjoy using it, but that’s my perogative – I only use low-fare carriers when there is no other reasonable choice. As far as Ryanair is concerned, I believe that they cut the service levels too far, and that’s why I won’t use them – ever. Southwest (in particular), easyJet and even bmiBaby manage to deliver a better product for the customer when the proverbial “wheels fall off” the master plan, and its the unpreparedness of Ryanair to do the same that I don’t like. And before Redsquare again tries to tell me that Ryanair does provide good service recovery, I hold up an example where I was travelling GVA-BHX with Lufthansa a while ago – when the RJ85 broke, within five minutes and without asking they had rebooked my on SNBA so I still got back to BHX at a similar time to what I was expecting to do, despite the fact that LH could have flown me back themselves four hours later. That’s proper service recovery.

As far as Mpacha’s comment above is concerned, I make no appologies for the fact that I do indeed hope Ryanair disappears – the entire airline industry will be better for it, even if some customers might think they’re not. I acknowledge that I have a right to chose not to fly with Ryanair if I don’t like it, but it goes further than that. I strongly believe that Ryanair (in particular, but to an extent the low-fare sector in general) have done more to damage the airline industry in the long term, and more particularly the conditions of the people who work within it, than anything else. The airline industry is NOT a nice place for many people to work now – longer hours, lower pay, more stress, ruder passengers than was the case ten years ago. This has largely been brought about by the low-fare sector, Ryanair in particular. There are some savings not worth making IMHO.

OK, so to reitterate. I don’t want to see Ryanair have an accident, I don’t want to see anyway hurt. But I would like to see the demise of Ryanair and whilst I doubt that will happen, I firmly believe that at some time in the future their style will have to change or their business will turn down – its just a matter of time, which IMHO can’t come too soon.

Andy

That simply will not do, redsquare.

I’m sure that no-one in here – and certainly not Skymonster – is wishing for any airline to ‘bend a plane or two’. Do you seriously imagine that anyone here is wishing carnage upon the passengers of Ryanair or of any other operator?

I invite you to withdraw your comments.

Promptly.

GA

He certainly appears to wish for the demise of Ryanair which I find equally distasteful and irrelevant to the topic!

I have read the interesting comments on this thread and have nothing but admiration for Ryanair and Easyjet, who have built their airlines up from scratch and worked at what the travelling public want. They are the Freddie Lakers of today and have successfull challenged the almighty BA, who swallowed up the competitive airlines or tried to put them out of business with ‘dirty tricks’. BA have been forced to reduce their fares to meet this competition and knowing people that work for Easyjet and Ryanair, both have high regard for these airlines.

Thank you very much, redsquare.

GA

Grey Area,

I sincerely apologise to you and Skymonster. I’d invite Skymonster to clarify his view of that particular matter and that would be the end of it. The continuous carry on from Skymonster had made me post that comment but I stick by the rest of that post.

Skymonster, I now regret the above comments but I’m sure you can see where I was coming from.

I do not care if this is a decision from Ryanair, ENAC or the Pope. If they seriously believe I am going to put over a 1000 euros worth of camera equipment into the hold, they are smoking some serious ****. No way a bagsmasher comes even close to my camera.

Absolutely. A few years ago at Lisbon I was waiting at the gate to board a plane to Brussells, and I saw how those baggage destroying idiots handled my Baby No.1… 1500 quid’s worth of Musicman Stingray 5 string bass. That thing was my single absolute most prized possession (before the G&L 5 string I play now 🙂 . Let’s just say I was not impressed… They ain’t getting anywhere near my humble 350D!

Paul

Moderator Comment

That simply will not do, redsquare.

I’m sure that no-one in here – and certainly not Skymonster – is wishing for any airline to ‘bend a plane or two’. Do you seriously imagine that anyone here is wishing carnage upon the passengers of Ryanair or of any other operator?

I invite you to withdraw your comments.

Promptly.

GA

Skymonster,

Firstly, an apology for the delay in getting back to you, I was in your neck of the woods, EMA of all places. You should pop in to Ryanair East Midlands Training some time, a nice warm 737-200 or -800 would be waiting for you.

Doesn’t pain me at all… I will not fly Ryanair even if it is the only choice, and I never will even if it is the last airline on this planet – which it won’t be. Therefore, Ryanair is largely irrelevent to me, although I believe that the guy who runs it is the biggest mennace to commercial aviation in Europe in the long term and I’ll not hesitate to represent that view when I have the chance. Even though it doesn’t pain me, it doesn’t stop me from having an opinion:

There’s obviously something that irrationally bothers you as you never miss an opportunity to slag Ryanair off. Is it the fact that you work for its rivals that may influence your vitriolic and abusive views?

Like I say, you’ve been sucked in by the Ryanair manta. At who’s expense do people travel for next to nothing? If you’re happy with the terms and conditions that now exist for employees in the industry, which have been immeasurably worsten since Ryanair came along, then that’s up to you.

I’m not naive enough to believe that Ryanair is perfect, in fact, for staff it is far from perfect. However, overall I am more than happy with my conditions as I’m paid considerably more than I would be had I joined a mainline airline instead of Ryanair..that’s a fact. You can choose to ignore all the benefits of Ryanair and waffle about about every little thing if you so choose, but sometimes you’re wide of the mark. Can you find any airline recruiting at least 320 pilots of which 260 are first officers who would otherwise be on the dole queue. I must also be imagining the numbers of pilots joining the airline from mainline and national airlines at their own free will. Why do they join? More money, bases close to home, new aircraft, home every night, predictable rosters (known up to 6 months in advance). I mean a captain I flew with 2 weeks ago joined 8 months ago and is making £115,000(€165,000) gross this year. He left bmi after over 20 years for that…horrible terms and conditions, I hope they never offer them to me, I’d be looking for the emergency exit outta here 😀

Airlines should not exist for the benefit of the bloated middle management and consultants who invariably cause most of the problems in the airline industry through their insatiable greed (see the USA). The European airline industry is in good shape with the exception of the usual suspects. I suppose you would have been in favour of companies such as Sabena and Swissair continuing on never making any money and bankrupting their taxpayers and staff for continual handouts.

If you’re happy that the passenger experience is more miserable – long queues,.

Again, I’m not going to pretend that everything is perfect but your views are debatable (hence me!). The average queue at a lot of the airports Ryanair use are short or often non-existant because the airports are not exactly LHR (hole!)for example. That leads nicely onto:

being dumped at airports they don’t want to be at,

Yes, Hahn, Girona, Skavsta etc. are located well away from their nearest cities, bear in mind that not everyone is going to these cities and they can still choose to fly into the main congested airports if they wish. Bear in mind that Ciampino, Bergamo, Gothenburg Save are actually closer to the city centres than the ‘main’ airports. People also now have the option of being able to fly directly to areas which were previously off limits or meant taking connections through the hubs and it’s becoming clear who is right. Here’s some market share data for you to chew on;
No.1 DUB LON = 45%
No.1 ROME LON = 34%
No.1 LON BARCA = 30%
No.1 BARCA DUB = 43%
No.1 STOCK MILAN = 50%
No.1 ROME STOCK = 60%

having to get themselves home when the wheels fall off – then that’s fine. I’d gladly pay a few more pounds for fair service, but Ryanair don’t provide that.

Again, you presume you know everything but in fairness nobody can have any excuses as the risks are well publiscised. However, that may be of little consolation to the passengers should the ‘wheels fall off’ and I have sympathy but it is very rare baring mind the 800 or so flights which are operated daily.

I have seen with my own eyes passengers being put up for the night in the Stansted Hilton when a crew member became ill yet we never hear about this because bad news makes better news. I have operated rescue flights, diverted to drop off engineers/parts to a sick aircraft, come in on days off to position aircraft. This summer there are between 4 and 6 spare aircraft depending on the day which shows the considerable steps being taken to minimise disruption to schedules. The fact also remains that Ryanair cancel the fewest flights and have the best punctuality in Europe…terrible isn’t it?

And don’t get me wrong – I’m not against low-fares/no-frills, but you need to take a look at what Southwest offers to realise that fair and reasonable service can still be combined with relatively low fares. Ryanair is in the gutter, easyJet comes close, and Southwest have got it pretty right.

I wholeheartedly agree re Southwest although I was only flew on them once, they are excellent. However, only 2 weeks ago I saw an interview with Colleen Barrett (another great Irish export), President and COO of Southwest who said that because of the rip off nature of the flag carriers in Europe, it was ‘inevitable’ that someone would create Ryanair it was just a question of who.

Ryanair will come a cropper – they’ll either bend a plane or two and write off a few passengers, or one too many people will get pissed off with what they offer, or something else will happen. But the airline industry is cyclical, and sooner or later some semblance of service will bounce back. Despite the pain that will be caused by that, it’ll be a good day for air travel.

Please forgive me if I’m wrong but it almost seems as if you are wishing for Ryanair to ‘bend a plane or two’. I don’t care how strong your beliefs are that is simply unnecessary, nasty and quite frankly disgraceful!

Back to more mundane matters, if you look at the longest served market – Ireland – you’ll see that loads, pax numbers, routes and market share have never been greater for Ryanair. It’s now about 15 years since Ryanair started down the low frills route there and it’s never been stronger so we must be on one hell of a long cycle especially considering the usual airline industry cycle is 6-8 years (we’re approaching the top right about now IMHO).

If you look at the most affected airlines from Ryanair, namely BA and Aer Lingus, they are doing incredibly well – hiring staff, new aircraft, large profits, record passengers – due to their ability to adopt to new challenges. Ryanair does more than anybody else to stimulate demand and that is where most of the growth is coming from.

I have an article from Flight International in 1994 which questions the decision to acquire the 737-200s from Lufthansa saying that Ryanair wouldn’t last long. Uh oh, how times change.

Unfortunately, your wishes for Ryanair to disappear are misplaced. We’re not going anywhere but up. What is it now, yes €2 billion in the bank, that’s means that if nobody ever bought a Ryanair ticket from tomorrow, it would take almost two years for Ryanair to run out of money even if every flight was operated. 22 consecutive years of profitability is rare in our industry as I’m sure you know. Ryanair has only scratched the surface of what is possible, huge potential lies ahead. 😀

PS Please do not interpret my comments as derisory or aggressive, that is not what is meant. I enjoy your views and debates.

Skymonster,

You speak a hell of a lot of sense mate. 🙂

Flex