The EU is bad enough, but the Euro….

Now you are venturing into to tinfoil hat territory.

Who exactly are these mysterious creatures that are “only interested in gaining more power?”

That and the rest of your post is typical hyperbole in my opinion that gets trotted out whenever the EU or the Euro is attacked. Yes there are elements of truth, perhaps enough to allow a watered down version of your comment, but the reality is the economic troubles are not of the EU or the Euro’s making albeit the existance of the Euro perhaps makes current times harder, see my previous comments.

Germany let other sovereign states develop industry? If those states decided to take the perhaps difficult and perhaps tough decisions to do that Germany doesn’t have a say in it. See again my previous comments. Either way if you are convinced Germany will not “allow” such an event to happen they are going to be of that persusion whether the Euro exists or not! So it’s certainly not an argument contra the Euro.

As for federalisation equals less democracy, what? How so?
Do you understand the meaning of federal?
Do you understand how a federal system works?
Do you associate liberal with leftie, commie loving, pinkie etc. etc?

Under a federal system each region (nation, state as you will) gets a degree of devolved power and makes local decisions.
This is exactly what you state is happening in the UK… So under your argument Federalisation is ok for the UK regions / nations but not for the EU as a whole. Strange.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism

Tough times today do not automatically equal EU / Euro is bad or wrong or ineffective long term. That is a simplistic and in my view incorrect and lazy analysis, but at present it suits those who like to blame all the woes of the world on the EU.

Breaking a few eggs? That’s peoples lives you’re talking about. Nice analogy though, the Euro combined with open door immigration across the continent is destroying peoples lives, communities and livelihoods.

Do you think that Germany is going to let the Southern States rival it’s manufacturing industry? The EU is using the southern and eastern states to suppress wages all across the EU, which we are even feeling in the UK.

The further the EU states move towards federalization, the more distant democracy becomes. Powers should be devolved to member states, as is happening with the various nations in the United Kingdom. The EU is only interested in gaining more power, even though it is becoming increasingly unpopular.

And the cultural differences within the US, Germany, France, Russia, India and China?

Where i live, Luxembourg, we do definately celebrate the differences and also the togetherness.

It seems to me to be a uniquely British, if not solely English, peculiarity to apologise for things.

With regard to the Euro is the problem argument, that may well be true on a short term viewpoint, as the old saying goes you do not make an omelette without breaking eggs.
If those states endure and get through the short term pain and as a result develop more robust and substantial economies because they are forced to by the circumstances is that not a good thing long term?
Or would you prefer that they remain the constant poor men of Europe, available to provide cheap labour for the global corporations in the anglo world?

The cultural differences between the North and the South of England are miniscule when compared to their EU counterparts.

Do the people of Portsmouth retire a good 10 years earlier than those in Blythe? Then expect a full state pension, even though their populations are aging?

When did the people of Leamington Spa start taking 2 hour siestas during the middle of the day?

The Euro is strangling these Southern states, had they separate national currencies, they would naturally devalue. I won’t subscribe to the notion that a ‘one size fits all’ system can be applied to such a broad variety of cultures. Perhaps the economies of the Southern European states are fine though, and I’m simply misreading all of the signs?

Perhaps we should try celebrating the things that make us all different, instead of having to apologize for them all of the time?

A Union of the Northern European states (excluding France) probably could have worked, but the cultures differences between the North and South are just too great to overcome in a financial union.

I don’t buy the “cultural differences” argument. On that basis any large affiliation shouldn’t be attempted. Global corporations seem to do very well at present some, including me, would say too well. If they can make cultural differences work why can an affiliation of nations not do the same, given time?

Which brings me to a second point, the EU is in it’s infancy. If the EU were a human it would be a babe in arms. One could argue that on the basis of many arguments here those people would throw the baby out with the bath water as it was not yet capable of fending and feeding for itself at this stage. Most large undertakings require time to reach full functionallity. Todays society, particularly in the anglo world, does not seem to appreciate this.

A result of the instant gratification age we now live in perhaps?

Back to the first point, all nations are affiliations of tribes or at least disparate groups, the argument that within the EU is too much “difference” should also stand for the US, Germany, France, Russia, India and of course China. Yet i’m not aware of any great groundswell that claims such.

Looking at a small country, England, there is a huge difference between South and North yet here there are no calls for seperation. If “difference” was such an issue surely there would be?

With regard to the economic troubles you highlight, these are a global issue in part caused by the global corporations. Of course the timing of the crisis was terrible for the EU and the Euro but that is to a degree blind luck.
Having said that i will once again state that the EU and the Euro are not the finished article and work is required to take them to where they should be.

For the life of me i can’t understand why any reasonable person with the interest of the well being of the whole European populance in mind would object to such a model; .

Having just returned from Southern Europe, it is a very bad state at the moment. As soon as you leave the larger cities, you are greeted to swathes of empty business parks, boarded up house, and abandoned, part finished holiday complexes. In my years of holidaying in various Southern European nations, I have never seen things so bad. I was there for 5 days, and most of the shops were closed over that entire period.
Youth unemployment is very high in these states now, and it is no wonder that Britain is filling up with these desperate youngsters.

Then we have the situation in Calais, where thousands of asylum seekers have taken to attacking truck drivers on the French side, doing anything to get across the channel. The French authorities are completely overwhelmed. This is happening because the other nations in the EU aren’t policing their borders. How can freedom of movement work successfully when the other nations don’t play their part?

A Union of the Northern European states (excluding France) probably could have worked, but the cultures differences between the North and South are just too great to overcome in a financial union.

It is becoming increasingly obvious that England tires of the EU, and the EU tires of England.

I can’t disagree with the last part of your latest charlie.
I do disagree with your characterisation of the EU, it’s current fortunes (Which are much more to do with a global issue than the EU itself in my opinion; just because the general, poorly and (in some cases deliberately) mis-informed, public find it easy to blame the EU doesn’t actually mean the correct cause has been identified. Particualrly when it is in national politicans interest and those of their chums in finance to have the blame laid elsewhere.) and it’s future.

The idea that becoming smaller and even less influential is good seems rather strange in todays world.

This piece makes interesting reading.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-politics/11007827/American-Way-Taken-for-granted-Britain-has-slipped-far-behind-Angela-Merkel-in-the-Washington-pecking-order.html

(bendy bananas and all that?),

Appreciate the reasoned opinion. Even if we differ in sentiment towards the EU.

However bendy bananas? Another myth that gets peddled which doesn’t stand up to the facts.

http://eudebate.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/euromyth-monday-bendy-bananas.html

http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/media/euromyths/bendybananas.html

http://www.economist.com/blogs/certainideasofeurope/2007/08/straight_bananas_and_teabag_co

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_Regulation_(EC)_No_2257/94

Well I take the contrary view that as time goes on the less likely the project is to come into being. It has seen a decline in its fortunes over the last few years as it has become larger and more unwieldy, much as many of us predicted. Fortunately for the rest of the world it is not a model which has been repeated elsewhere. A referendum of the entire population in each country as to its future might be interesting, with the obvious proviso that no second chances will be on offer to achieve the “right” result. However you and I know that the proverbial pigs will take to the air before that happens.

Our views are polar opposites so we are unlikely to find any common ground so although the thread will no doubt stutter along I cannot see anything but a gulf of ocean between you and me over the EU and its future.

Well charlie that might well be the case in our lifetime but i suspect that as time passes and we die off the younger and yet to be born generations will carry less and less of the false and mis-guided baggage you and many of your generation carry.

Your characterisation of the EU smacks of tin-foil hat conspiracy theories.

As i’ve noted before, federal institutons and states are a very good idea and enable regional differentation within the advantages of a larger entity.
For the life of me i can’t understand why any reasonable person with the interest of the well being of the whole European populance in mind would object to such a model; unless of course they are corrupting the meaning of federal in the same way the yanks appear to corrupt the meaning of liberal.

As i have stated previously the EU is by no means the finished article and requires work and in some cases reform to move it towards the institution it could be.

.

Your tongue is in your cheek, I trust. “Requires some work”. That’s a classic. And almost as good as your second phrase “to move it towards the institution it could be”!! The only institution the EU bureaucracy is interested in is an autonomous federal state, and that is just what it will never ever be.

I don’t know what to do with the EU debate.
If you ask me, as an Englishman, if I want to come out of the EU I hesitate.
I hesitate because although coming out of the EU seems like a good idea (bendy bananas and all that?),
I have to look at my own working experience over the past 15 years.
1994 – 2003 – Employed by Cap Gemini UK (French Company)
2004 – 2009 – Employed by O2 UK (Spanish Company)
So while it may seem like we owe nothing to the EU a lot of our jobs depend on it.
So, reluctantly I’m in. But I hate it! Just don’t know why?

Indeed so and I write as one who had never read the Daily Mail or possibly in the dim and distant past long before it adopted tabloid format.

If the monolith when of the EU bureaucracy is incapable of demanding accounting accuracy from its members when it is the more than capable of stamping its feet in other matters it’s probably because it suits it not to.

I accept that the Snafus of this world in their various guises are apologists for the EU and so no doubt view the institution through fairly rose tinted spectacles.

If your reading comprehension was up to scratch you’d have noted that i mentioned daily fail type not the dismal organ itself.

As for the rest of your apology for your factless opinion; i do believe you’ll find it is the politicians in those national administrations, who certain of your anti EU ilk were so quick to champion as the rightful electorate for the post now occupied by the peoples choice Mr Juncker, in who’s interest it is to not look too deeply into the waste and potential corruption the EU’s accounts note.

As i have stated previously the EU is by no means the finished article and requires work and in some cases reform to move it towards the institution it could be.

However unlike some beer swilling surrender poodles there are those of us who see this and are prepared to put the work in to achieve a good result for all rather than run away and pull the draw bridge up whilst whimpering about the nasty foreigners.

…If you chaps were capable of reading and comprehending anything beyond daily fail type garbage that supports your views…

Oh please don’t disillusion them – they have no need to read or comprehend anything that doesn’t support their view, because that is just lefty propaganda put there to bolster their right wing agenda!

You know as well as I do that if Nigel claimed battering cute little kittens to death with mallets would cause Britain to leave Europe they’d be there, hammering away with freshly brewed gusto, and probably crowing that the immigrants forced them to do it.

Indeed so and I write as one who had never read the Daily Mail or possibly in the dim and distant past long before it adopted tabloid format.

If the monolith when of the EU bureaucracy is incapable of demanding accounting accuracy from its members when it is the more than capable of stamping its feet in other matters it’s probably because it suits it not to.

I accept that the Snafus of this world in their various guises are apologists for the EU and so no doubt view the institution through fairly rose tinted spectacles.

So given undisputable fact that their lies are indeed lies these upstanding servants of the truth choose to ignore the fact that they have both spread falsehoods.

If you chaps were capable of reading and comprehending anything beyond daily fail type garbage that supports your views you would both note that the errors that are identified are firmly the responsibility of national governments.

Not so good for your EU bashing rhetoric that, so you of course choose to ignore the fact.

Oh and Johnny Green, firstly how’s your wife? Secondly if you are playing such pathetic games i find it strange that the daily fail, an organ you undoubtably worship, (no don’t deny it i don’t believe you :-)) is owned by a chap who chooses to pay no tax in the UK…

PS how are nigeels offshore funds doing at the mo?

Patriots all…

In any case by their own admission errors persist in all main spending areas and the fact that it has only been signed off for the past 5 years speaks volumes.

Now let me see. I wonder who supports the budget of the European Court of Auditors ? In any event the question is ridiculous. Who would possibly imagine that this would in any conceivable way influence their judgment and impartiality?

Facts, like the fact that the EU has never submitted a set of accounts? How can a supposedly democratic organisation get away with that when there are such huge sums of money involved?

http://ec.europa.eu/budget/figures/2014/2014_en.cfm

It’s all a socialist con. The EU doesn’t even slightly reflect the politics of the UK, and for that reason alone we should leave.

That tired old lie is bullsh*t.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_ECA-13-36_en.htm

If you actually are interested in facts you will note that the issues arise under national government jurisdication and the accounts have been signed off every year since 2007 up to 2012 which is the latest year to be audited.

“The annual report on the EU budget for 2012 financial year was published today by the European Court of Auditors (ECA). As independent auditor, the ECA has signed off the 2012 accounts of the European Union, as it has done each year since the 2007 financial year. But in most spending areas of the EU budget the report finds that the legislation in force is still not fully complied with.”

Perhaps you should try reading the section on the very page you linked to titled Myths and Facts.

Without the “massive leaden bureaucracy” most EU states would also vastly accelerate the destruction of their environment and wildlife, as well as revert to poorer or even zero standards of food hygiene laws, human rights, health and safety, road safety standards, etc etc.
Sure, there are some pretty major problems to be overcome, and this week’s presidential election has added to them.
But the essential point is that the EU is the only body able to over-ride the petty short-termism and greed inherent in ours, and indeed pretty much every country’s national governments, and pass legislation supports a less myopic outlook.
It’s dissolution, or even our secession from it, would essentially let the current government, already a total disaster for the UK, do what it likes. More cuts. More wreckage of the environment. More relentless victimisation of the poor to benefit the rich.
On a European scale, I can’t help thinking EU dissolution would also be a massive step backward toward the belligerent international politics of the early 20th century, and away from the post-1945 spirit of cooperation and tolerance.

I do agree in principal.

Sadly, in practice it has been defiled by a succession of greedy, incompetent bureaucrats. It has bloated out of all proportion, and the people who hold all the power in the EU want more of the same – they’re not interested in reducing their influence. I suspect that they will continually try to create a single European republic, and all notion of national democracy will be dead.

Their power play in the ex Soviet state is a sign of their intentions. It’s just a good job that they don’t have an army, though I suspect it is only a matter of time until they want to assume control of the defense forces of all European nations.