The French are no longer redefining Overlord

The French soldiery, (and air force) by and large fought well and bravely in 1940.

Their strategy and leadership let them down.

Moggy

Ce
Yes and no. 1st, antisemitic etc. feelings were quite strong (media related) . The famous author Louis Ferdinand Celine for ex was fascist or so.
2nd, WWII started only 20 years after WWI massacre (1.7 million dead, the country half destroyed etc.). General feeling was “never more” But you are right, strategy was terrible…
I feel quite comfortable as former military and grandson of an officer that earned 6 stars during WWI

Re 60

Some did – most didn’t. The memory of the scale of casualties in WW1 weighed heavily upon the French – as it did with the British but, not quite to the same extent.

Their faith in the efficacy of the Maginot Line was misplaced. The French had the largest army in the world by far – 4 million men under arms.

The French soldiery, (and air force) by and large fought well and bravely in 1940.

Their strategy and leadership let them down.

Moggy

If in 1940, the French had fought with the determination and courage they displayed against the Allies (British) during campaigns in Syria, Lebanon, Madagscar, West Africa, and then the North Africa landings (British & Americans) while fighting on the side of the Germans, (Vichy French) they would possibly not have experienced the shame of defeat and the occupation of France.

As an ex para (and still reservist) i’ll tell you do yourself what i’m thinking about.
Although i regret these administrative changes, i cant help educating you

I don’t think there are many on here who would doubt the bravery of those Frenchmen who escaped and continued to fight in exile until their country could be free. Such a pity the French Navy couldn’t show similar couirage. I am sure we regret the death of every single matelot in that horrible action. What a difference the French fleet could have made to the Battle of the Atlantic and elsewhere.

But as for the French bureaucrats and officials of today, they seemed to consider only the Debarquement Industry, not the need to recognise all bravery.

Moggy

As an ex para (and still reservist) i’ll tell you do yourself what i’m thinking about.
Although i regret these administrative changes, i cant help educating you

Normandy Landings[edit]
By the time of the Normandy Invasion, the Free French forces numbered more than 400,000 strong.[citation needed] 900 Free French paratroopers landed as part of the British Special Air Service (SAS) Brigade; the Free French 2nd Armored Division—under General Leclerc—landed at Utah Beach in Normandy on 1 August 1944, and eventually led the drive toward Paris, while the divisions which had been fighting in Italy became part of the French First Army—under General Jean de Lattre de Tassigny—and joined the U.S. 7th Army in Operation Dragoon. This operation was the Allied invasion of southern France. The Allied forces advanced up the line of the Rhône River to liberate the Vosges and southern Alsace.

(wikipedia)

Oh and btw about Mers el Kebir, from English version….

Before negotiations were formally terminated, British Fairey Swordfish planes escorted by obsolete Blackburn Skuas were dispatched from the Ark Royal to drop magnetic mines in the path of the French ships’ route to sea. This force was intercepted by French Curtiss H-75 fighters. One of the Skuas was shot down by French fighters and crashed into the sea, killing its two-man crew, the only British fatalities in the action.[9]
A short while later, on Churchill’s instructions, the British ships opened fire against the French.[6] The British opened fire at extreme range on 3 July 1940 at 17:54.[10][11] The French eventually replied but ineffectively. The third salvo from the British force and the first to hit resulted in a magazine explosion aboard Bretagne, which sank with 977 of her crew dead at 18:09. After some thirty salvos, the French ships stopped firing. Meanwhile, the British force altered their course to avoid fire from the French coastal forts. Provence, Dunkerque and the destroyer Mogador were damaged and run aground by their crews.

From my own experience my fellow citizens are more Anglophile than Americanophile. We often mock the English (you guys have your share of arrogant people too!)

Isn’t this the truth?

There is a complex three-way relationships between peoples who are different and both love and hate the others.

Speaking personally now, and think of me as an archetypal older Brit:

I love the Americans for their support, however belated in various wars. I am dubious about them as they should really be our colony still

I love the French for their food, enlightened attitude towards wine, and hospitality whenever I have tottered across The English Channel (Never ‘La Manche’). I am dubious about them because of the arrogance of some of their officialdom and the fact they made some pug-ugly aircraft.

Doubtless each of the others could come up with an equally balanced view.

Moggy

Many regard the destruction of the French fleet at Mers el Kebir as a national tragedy, and still harbour (not meant as a joke) resentment for it. There also seems to be a general feeling that the Americans liberated them, while British and Commonwealth troops were a sideshow.

This is from my own experience.

It is rather amusing that a few hours after reading this thread for the first time I find a documentary film about the 6th Airborne Division broadcasted on France 5 TV channel. A French film BTW, with very interesting testimonies and archives. It on air right now and it’s called 6 juin 1944, ils étaient les premiers (6 June 1944, they were the first ones).

From my own experience my fellow citizens are more Anglophile than Americanophile. We often mock the English (you guys have your share of arrogant people too!) but most of the time it is a reaction to either food or the borderline autistic obsession of some of the English media with France – something I almost never encountered the other way around. Something that cannot be said of the US.

Heck, you’ll even find union jacks everywhere in Paris!

Marvellous news and the only just result. Well done all!:applause:

Thanks to all those who took the few moments needed to sign.

Your voice has been heard

Victory! This time, I can say for sure that the so-called “Mythical sector” project has been cancelled. Thanks to our repeated calls (relayed by the French and international press) and thanks to the success of the petition, the six tourist offices gave up their project. All in all, the petition obtained 3 714 signatures within only two months.

This debate, which was led by the DDay-Overlord website, has reached the highest authorities of the French State. As a consequence, an important decision was taken a few days before the 69th D-Day anniversary and this decision was made official on June 6th, 2013 by the French vice-minister of the War veterans, Kader Arif: the international ceremony of the 70th D-Day anniversary will take place on Sword Beach!

So ends this campaign for the conservation of the historic areas of Normandy. We need to remain attentive in order to prevent any other projects of that kind. Tourist offices and all those who intend to develop these kinds of ideas are warned! We won’t let it happened.

I thank you all for your commitment by my side and for the excellent conclusion of this campaign.

Signed

…….Mind you. If you’d waited, I would’ve sent you my copy and saved you the expense of buying one.

Now he tells me…….

Regards,

kev35

why do the media, and by definition the readers of the Daily mail assume the French are one big united group..?

The media, and tabloid media in particular, is incapable of subtlety – painting in broad brush strokes is all they know and so by definition, their readers too.

why do the media, and by definition the readers of the Daily mail assume the French are one big united group..?

‘Johnny Foreigner’? 😀

John – I read it and enjoyed it and meant to post it but my good intentions were thwarted! I had already posted some days ago those details of the Europoll and what makes it more significant is that it is the “official” EU polling organisation!!

Andy – the area where I have many friends and lived from time to time was one which voted against the Nice treaty, at which there was a French “non”, if you recall – 54% against it.

Actually John, last night on the BBC (Radio 4) there was a piece about how many Germans and French would vote to be out of the EU–if given the chance. Quite a lot is the answer.
Many of my French friends rather envy Britain and it’s EU stance.They don’t like the concept of the EU any more than I do–or the Euro.
They’d have the Franc back tomorrow. I know Germans and Greeks who’d like their old currencies back too.
What annoys me about some of the comments above is the way all the French are slung in the same basket. Let’s face it, there’s little agreement on anything discussed here, so why do the media, and by definition the readers of the Daily mail assume the French are one big united group..?

Yes Kev,

That would be the mosr sensible thing to do.

Mind you. If you’d waited, I would’ve sent you my copy and saved you the expense of buying one.

A piece in to-days Telegraph is pertinent. …”The British say the French are arrogant and the French agree…”

The British also judge the French to be the least trustworthy in Europe – wait for it, they believe the Germans to be the most trustworthy.

The Greeks trust the Germans the least – no surprise there. The Greeks regard themselves as the most trustworthy in Europe.

Germany and France say that the British are least compassionate people in Europe but, other nations gave that title to the Germans.

The proportion of Europeans who regard membership of the EU as good has fallen to 45%.

France is more Eurosceptic than Britain with 41% compared to 43%.

Britain was split evenly between those wanting out of the EU and those who want to stay; 46%

All of the above was the result of a survey of nearly 8,000 people in the major countries of the EU conducted by the Pew Research Center in Washington, presumably America.

Specialy for you Charlie, the stereotypes live on and why not ?

Does anyone have any explanation as to why the French did not hand these vessels over to the Allies or, at least sail them to a neutral port?

j jza80

Two good and generally accepted points.

The Mers el Kebir/Oran naval engagement was entirely the fault of the French Govt. Either of the two options they were presented with provided them with enough excuse to escape the Navy’s attack. Even so, Somerville did not satisfactorily complete the job.

Yes, they should have left that to the french, they were better suited for the job.
Scuttling of the French fleet in Toulon

Operation Lila was a failure. The French destroyed 77 vessels, including 3 battleships, 7 cruisers, 15 destroyers, 13 torpedo boats, 6 sloops, 12 submarines, 9 patrol boats, 19 auxiliary ships, 1 school ship, 28 tugs and 4 cranes. Thirty-nine small ships were captured, most of them sabotaged and disarmed. Some of the major ships were ablaze for several days, and oil polluted the harbour so badly that it was two years before it was possible to swim there.