The Great Escape: The Reckoning – Channel 4 programme discussion

The urns containing the ashes were returned to the camp at Sagan and the prisoners were allowed to construct a memorial with stone and cement supplied by the Germans. Possibly that memorial stands to this day

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89339 – post 22

At least they got those bast*rds & the other ones killed themselves.

Thats what we need in this country a man like him running the police force!

Are you serious?? 😮

Ah…..Spitfire Vb EN830! 😉

Quite right and a direct link to the Great Escape.

Plenty of info on here.

http://www.elsham.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/gt_esc/index.html

Thanks RG – will have a read this evening

and thanks CD

Roger Smith.

Also, when news got back to Sagan (and, presumably, spread to other camps) about the murders did it have any effect on subsequent escape plans?

According to Paul Brickhill’s book all escape attempts at Sagan were temporarily stopped although work on the fourth tunnel ‘George’ continued. Following the news of the executions the camp guards were wary of any possibility of unrest and there were several instances of guards shooting at prisoners. In another Sagan compound a guard shot and killed an American sergeant ‘standing innocently in the doorway of his hut’.

Eventually, after much pleading, ‘a Scot named McCulloch’ was allowed by the reformed X organisation to attempt an escape. He was quickly recaptured and returned to the compound.

The very real concern for the remaining POW was that there may be orders to ‘liquidate’ the camps as the war was clearly going badly for Germany. All prisoners were organised into a camp self-defence force called the Klim Klub.

…I’m off to bed.

Ah…..Spitfire Vb EN830! 😉

I believe this link has been posted before.

Air Commodore Charles Clarke, the President of the 619 Squadron Association, was one of the organisers of the following commemorative project out in Poland http://www.raf.mod.uk/project104/

Plenty of info on here.

http://www.elsham.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/gt_esc/index.html

Inevitably a documentary can leave questions hanging behind it.

Two things – it was mentioned that the Soviets were not interested (obstructed?) in the enquiry. Did this remain the case all through the enquiry and were any political moves made to smooth the way?

Also, when news got back to Sagan (and, presumably, spread to other camps) about the murders did it have any effect on subsequent escape plans?

Roger Smith.

It’s still a fine film in itself, very entertaining and I have it on DVD, but I object to the film makers simply making up their own characters and heroics and spectacle just to please some Yanks in the audience.

Quite right, however Americans played a big part in the preparation and build up to the tunnels being started, until they were moved to another compound.

The tunneller getting clostraphobia was a nonsense, suggested to them by the actor himself (was it Charles Bronson?) because he had the fear of enclosed spaces himself.

Claustrophobia was prevalent, I don’t have my books to hand, but if I recall correctly Wings Day suffered from it, but managed to keep it from his fellow escapers. OK one of the escapees getting an attack in the tunnel was probably fictional, but it was used to show the conditions that the POW’s were working in and the constant threat of falls etc.

The forger going blind and then getting killed was also nonsense. And the two American characters, Garner and McQueen, were as I understand it totally fictional.

Though no direct comparison it is generally accepted that McQueen’s character was based on a POW called Jerry Sage, and maybe also FLt Mahon of 121 Sqn Eagle Squadron. Garners was possibly based on a POW who insisted on being called Marcel “Axel” Zillessen.

Are real British or Commonwealth characters not interesting enough to make as the lead rather than some faked Yanks?

Not when you are trying to sell a film to a large American audience, don’t forget Coburn played an Aussie escaper !

An interesting true story is one of the 50 murdered escapees was a Maori bomber pilot, how he thought he’d get away through Europe is beyond me and that takes great courage.

Maybe to a NZ audience, but you forget this film is entertainment based on a true story, unlike the programme aired last night it was not made as a documentary. When I met Sydney Dowse ten years ago last September, he told me that he had asked why he the names and characters were changed in the film. Brickhill claimed to protect those who survived and also because is was not made to be an exact documentary of the events, more of a representation.

The whole scenario of how the tunnel was discovered during the mass escape was also fudged.

You’ve lost me there, in what way ? The names of the tunnels were certainly mixed up and the entry routes changed between the tunnels, the film showing the trap being through the floor of the wash room, when in reality this was the entrance for Dick, the tunnel that was never found. The actual discovery of the escapers was fairly close to the real thing, so not sure how you come to the conclusion it was fudged.

My opinion is make it a factual film or a fictional film but not both.

In that case of the Great Escape, it would have been impossible to make a more factual film and keep the audience entertained, why ? Because the construction of the tunnel took the best part of 12 months, much of what went on was boring mundane stuff, to make this film more interesting/entertaining the producer injected events that happened, but not necessarily in direct relation to the escape itself. One criticism made about the film is that is never showed the boredom inflicted on the inmates.

Examples :-

The blitz escape effected by McQueen and Lennie as moles was actually undertaken by Jack Best and Bill Goldfinch, they ended up at Colditz and were responsible for the Colditz Glider.

Several prisoners try hiding in an outgoing lorry loaded with cut tree branches.

The scene where the POW falls through the bunks after the bed boards are removed in based on a true event.

The scene where McQueen finds the blind spot in the fence was based on a true attempt by POW called Toft and Nichols, they were quickly recaptured.

Carol singing to disguise the make of equipment etc, happened and the Germans never picked up on the fact it was no where near Christmas.

There are others but as it has gone mid-night I’m off to bed.

One widely known fact, but I repeat it here out of interest is that Donald Pleasence had been a real-life POW being shot down in a 166 Sqn Lancaster 31 August – 1 September 1944.

And the two American characters, Garner and McQueen, were as I understand it totally fictional. Are real British or Commonwealth characters not interesting enough to make as the lead rather than some faked Yanks?

Certainly there were fictional elements and amalgamations of real people but there were several Americans that featured prominently in the tunnelling plan some of whom were transferred to another compound that opened at Sagan before the fateful escape.

Possibly the problem was not one of nationality of escaper but of nationality of suitable actors; remember the awful ‘Australian’ accent of James Coburn?

…does anybody know where the victims ashes were buried (there was a memorial in the closing shots but it didn’t say where)?

The urns containing the ashes were returned to the camp at Sagan and the prisoners were allowed to construct a memorial with stone and cement supplied by the Germans. Possibly that memorial stands to this day; Sagan is now in Poland.

It is interesting that after ordering the murder of the escapees no attempt was made to cover-up the crime at the time, only later did those involved try to cover their tracks.

It’s still a fine film in itself, very entertaining and I have it on DVD, but I object to the film makers simply making up their own characters and heroics and spectacle just to please some Yanks in the audience.
My opinion is make it a factual film or a fictional film but not both.

Feel free to make your own film.
:diablo:

If YOU put up millions of dollars of your own money, you’d probably want it to make a profit.
That’s why we get films (even from NZ :D) that are dramatized…with extra or composite characters. They make films for money.
MGM wasn’t in the documentary business.
Anyone who expects a feature film to be a history lesson (with a few exceptions like Tora 3…which did not make money) is a fool.

Anyone willing to bet that the new Dam Busters doen’t take a few liberties with history or characters?

The one thing I think may have been wrong in the programme was the picture of Bushell stood in front of a Hurricane, he may have flown a Hurricane, but to the best of my knowledge he went from Blenheims to Spitfires and was shot down in a Spitfire of 92 Sqn, 23 May 1940.

Despite Moggy’s reservations I thought the programme was fine.

I’ve just seen this on Sky plus, the image (and that of the investigator with a Lancaster) were “photoshopped” or similar, maybe just to give some background to the pictures or to add some weight to the narration.

It was a well made programme I thought , but to me it did lack a bit of depth, but one especially chilling element was stopping to drop of theatre tickets with a prisoner in the car while you are on the way to murder him.

I’ve just a while trawling the net without luck, does anybody know where the victims ashes were buried (there was a memorial in the closing shots but it didn’t say where)?

Dave, though the film was manipulated to make it more appealing to the general masses, much of what was featured happened at one time or another, that is except for the bike ride and the plane crash,

It’s still a fine film in itself, very entertaining and I have it on DVD, but I object to the film makers simply making up their own characters and heroics and spectacle just to please some Yanks in the audience. The tunneller getting clostraphobia was a nonsense, suggested to them by the actor himself (was it Charles Bronson?) because he had the fear of enclosed spaces himself. The forger going blind and then getting killed was also nonsense. And the two American characters, Garner and McQueen, were as I understand it totally fictional. Are real British or Commonwealth characters not interesting enough to make as the lead rather than some faked Yanks? An interesting true story is one of the 50 murdered escapees was a Maori bomber pilot, how he thought he’d get away through Europe is beyond me and that takes great courage. The whole scenario of how the tunnel was discovered during the mass escape was also fudged.

My opinion is make it a factual film or a fictional film but not both.

It’s high time a decent film was made about The Great Escape, telling the true story and not the hyped up Hollywood nonsense of the 1960’s version with motorbykes and plane crashes and closterphobic tunnellers and make-believe American charcaters. The true story is better thanthe fiction.

Dave, though the film was manipulated to make it more appealing to the general masses, much of what was featured happened at one time or another, that is except for the bike ride and the plane crash, though two POW’s did at one time escape and try to steal an aircraft. The making of illicit alcohol is documented in various books, the various and sometimes far fetched escape attempts are also quite close to the real ones. If the film makers had gone true to the real Great Escape, the audience would have been bored stupid.

The one thing I think may have been wrong in the programme was the picture of Bushell stood in front of a Hurricane, he may have flown a Hurricane, but to the best of my knowledge he went from Blenheims to Spitfires and was shot down in a Spitfire of 92 Sqn, 23 May 1940. Several well respected books on the subject continue to list him as flying a Hurricane on this day.

Despite Moggy’s reservations I thought the programme was fine.

Blink!

Fan-bloody-tastic.

Of course that was one of the money-saving episodes written by Stephen Moffat who is now the series producer, and shot by the second unit without the main cast members present for a large part of the time.

Still the best episode ever.

Meanwhile, back at the topic:

I really did feel that the Director and Art Director of last night programme were in love with meticulous recreation, sometimes to the detriment of the alleged storyline, the search for vengeance

Moggy

I haven’t sat down and watched them but the latest episodes of Dr Who just seem to be based around what they have hanging in the props wardrobe….
London during the Blitz, Queen Victoria, to mention two….:rolleyes:

Keeping a close eye on thread drift here…. some of the scripts are (IMO) very good and can give you goose bumps (“Blink” anybody ?) but it gets very twee every Christmas when people come back for the special, Rose is dead, ah, no she isn’t…. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

With that quality and thought out script writing, “The Great Escape” could make a great drama. Location, not hugely expensive, cast, quite young (and therefore less expensive…) I still think its a better option than a big screen film that would need US money to make, US money means US stars to feature.

BBC won’t/can’t take much investment which is why Dr Who spends a lot of time in Cardiff/London sorting out the Tyler family !

I haven’t sat down and watched them but the latest episodes of Dr Who just seem to be based around what they have hanging in the props wardrobe….
London during the Blitz, Queen Victoria, to mention two….:rolleyes:

Totally agree, but keep the music:)

Maybe a TV series (4 or 6 parts?) with a budget for scripts more than a big screen film. A lot of US makers take in overseas investment from companies like Sky etc, which is why they can make something with an “edge” across a wide range from “Sex and the city”, sci-fi, Band Of Brothers etc.

BBC won’t/can’t take much investment which is why Dr Who spends a lot of time in Cardiff/London sorting out the Tyler family !

BBC can produce high quality drama going back to Edge Of Darkness, State Of Play, ITV….. p’ah……..

but yes, keep the music, my 10 year old has seen some of the movie and wants to see more….. so there is hope among the young !