The Great GD Libya Thread

But the media thing goes both ways, and I’m sure ‘Tele Libya’ or ‘The Tripoli Daily News’ or whatever they call themselves, have thair own set of statistics and government claims. We can only speculate ref the percentage of Libyans that have access to any other media, I would be genuinely interested to know. I totally appreciate the fact that you have been there, and yes of course you can only base your opinion on talking to the locals, I am not disputing that for a moment. Back in the mid 80’s, I attended the training ‘schools’ of two east european airlines, with a view to being trained in the load control and handling of the types operated by them, and then instructing our staff back home. Obviously, there was time for socialising, and at each of the airlines, the instructors and fellow trainees were great guys, and a few good nights out were had. I can only remember one guy in Berlin who ever mentioned anything to do with politics, the subject was avoided like the plague by the others. Were the instructors part of the ‘Party faithful”? you bet, and I’m sure that you will have dealt with, and been monitored by, cadres of the Jamahiriya many times during your visit(s). And I have no doubt, that the StB and MfS monitored mine. It is the nature of the beast.

There was only one Hotel with Internet, “The International” in Tripoli. So it was obviously net-bugged. Who wouldn’t!
We used Sat. phones for anything other than works trivia, which we used Email for.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for total Western command of the Middle East but I still think the protestors in Libya are in the minority, and again, much as I approve of the use of Military Force whenever possible (I need the sales!), I think this time, just because Res. 1973 has been passed, we’ve gone in too quick without the full story. In Iraq and Afghan, we didn’t go in quick enough or hard enough, so my opinion in this case is sort of the opposite of my usual.
And, I have no pals or peers over there, couldn’t care less about the people I dealt with.

Apart from the past fortnight of shelling, is there actually any evidence of the Col. brutalising the people?

USA may turn Libya action over to France and Britain (March 21)

This should be interesting…

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100080582/the-british-lion-roars-over-libya-is-this-the-return-of-great-britain-as-a-world-power/

I’ve been there. I can only base my disingenuousness on talking, eating with some of the folk. They were no more peed off than you or I with Blair or Cameron.

Speculation on the amount of support for the Col. Only based on BBC, CNN, Al Jaz, Sky, NHK, the Chinese one, The Indian one, Russia today, France today, Fox news.
A pretty broad viewpoint, Murdoch doesn’t control all of them.

But the media thing goes both ways, and I’m sure ‘Tele Libya’ or ‘The Tripoli Daily News’ or whatever they call themselves, have thair own set of statistics and government claims. We can only speculate ref the percentage of Libyans that have access to any other media, I would be genuinely interested to know. I totally appreciate the fact that you have been there, and yes of course you can only base your opinion on talking to the locals, I am not disputing that for a moment. Back in the mid 80’s, I attended the training ‘schools’ of two east european airlines, with a view to being trained in the load control and handling of the types operated by them, and then instructing our staff back home. Obviously, there was time for socialising, and at each of the airlines, the instructors and fellow trainees were great guys, and a few good nights out were had. I can only remember one guy in Berlin who ever mentioned anything to do with politics, the subject was avoided like the plague by the others. Were the instructors part of the ‘Party faithful”? you bet, and I’m sure that you will have dealt with, and been monitored by, cadres of the Jamahiriya many times during your visit(s). And I have no doubt, that the StB and MfS monitored mine. It is the nature of the beast.

I’ve been there. I can only base my disingenuousness on talking, eating with some of the folk. They were no more peed off than you or I with Blair or Cameron.

Speculation on the amount of support for the Col. Only based on BBC, CNN, Al Jaz, Sky, NHK, the Chinese one, The Indian one, Russia today, France today, Fox news.
A pretty broad viewpoint, Murdoch doesn’t control all of them.

The aeroplane yesterday was a Rebel jet shot down by Rebels. Facebook failed on that one then!
Some post said above, “it’s all very well to take sides”. Yes indeed it is, pick a side or you never make a decision!
I will always be on the side of the civilised West against any and all tyrany. I’m not convinced however that a great deal of tyrany was going on in Libya before the Facebook rebellion. Having been there and been part of Military sales. Just because next door had a go and won, the Libyans decided to do so and they nearly got themselves wiped out.
It seems to me that there were more people in support of the Col. than there were rebelling. And that’s from all 6 or 7 of the news channels available on TV.
Moving on, the UN resolution is being enforced, and we couldn’t wait to do it.
We now need to move against the other tyranical nations, China, Saudi, Korea…………oh wait, they fight back. Still, we need the experience.

Your remark ref the opposition activists having a go just because ‘next door’ did, is IMO being a little disingenuous to them. As for there not being a great deal of tyranny going on in Libya prior to the uprising, I find this analysis surprising. All dictatorial regimes practice tyranny, it is fundamental to their longevity. Regimes such as Gadaffi’s, can never tolerate opposition, because they regard this as a virus that, if unchecked, will result in the regimes death, and it usually does. As for wether there is more support for Gadaffi than there is opposition, how can we know this? that is speculation surely. I fail to see why the Libyan people should not be as entitled to a free and democratic society as anyone else, wether inspired from ‘next door’ or not. Twenty or so years ago, was it not the people of eastern and central Europe emulating their neighbours, that helped to bring down many dictatorships? Gadaffi is a leader who thinks nothing of brutalising his own people to ensure his and his regimes survival. I’m not sure that when you visited Libya on your sales trip, wether or not their secret police, or interior ministry ‘apparatchiks’ would have been too keen for you to have seen too much of their day to day tyranny, of which you seem to be so sceptical.

The aeroplane yesterday was a Rebel jet shot down by Rebels. Facebook failed on that one then!
Some post said above, “it’s all very well to take sides”. Yes indeed it is, pick a side or you never make a decision!
I will always be on the side of the civilised West against any and all tyrany. I’m not convinced however that a great deal of tyrany was going on in Libya before the Facebook rebellion. Having been there and been part of Military sales. Just because next door had a go and won, the Libyans decided to do so and they nearly got themselves wiped out.
It seems to me that there were more people in support of the Col. than there were rebelling. And that’s from all 6 or 7 of the news channels available on TV.
Moving on, the UN resolution is being enforced, and we couldn’t wait to do it.
We now need to move against the other tyranical nations, China, Saudi, Korea…………oh wait, they fight back. Still, we need the experience.

So we have grown tired of the Gadaffi political puppet and are now taking action to oust him. Well done modern world. How long before we are taking action against the so called `Rebels` when they have turned against us?

What I don’t understand is why the so called `Rebels` are any better than the so called `Government`.

If we didn’t seek to get in bed with these dictators for our own personal gains (oil, territory, political influence, military gain) then maybe we wouldn’t be constantly trying to mop up the mess. Or maybe we like to have out military fingers in lots of arab pies? Arms sales, military proving ground, local alienation of arab nations etc.

The memorial in Reading to the Afganistan war during the 18 hundreds suggests this will go on for a lonf time yet.

How did a No Fly Zone enforcement involve blowing up a tank? Wow mission creep on day one. The UN mandate is for the protection of civilians, but how do you differentiate civilians from rebels, who are not civilians? The press has had trouble with that from the beginning. Will the rebels be allowed to operate MiGs or will the No Fly Zone apply only to the Gaddafi gang? Are rebel MiGs under the protective clause of “civilians” as well? Unless that tank was firing on a crowd of unarmed protestors, the prospect of the growing abuse of UN mandate is alarming.

It’s all well and good if Gaddafi gives up quickly, but all he has to do is not fold to make a mess of things.

Not “mission creep”.

Read 1973.

International forces sent to Libya update March 19, 2011

France: —Deployed eight Rafale and four Mirage jets to survey rebel-held Benghazi; one fired on a Libyan military vehicle in first military strike of operation. —Six C-135 refueling tankers —1 AWACS surveillance plane —Deploying the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier to the region Sunday from Toulon. —Also envisages using anti-air frigates Jean-Bart and Forbin, anti-submarine frigate Dupleix, the Aconit frigate and a refueling ship La Meuse.

Canada: —Sent six F-18s to Italy base; 140 military personnel involved. —Frigate HMCS Charlottetown is in Mediterranean for possible staging ground for Canadian forces.

United States: —Prepared to launch missile attacks on Libyan air defenses but so far not participating in initial air missions. —Has two guided-missile destroyers in the Mediterranean, the USS Barry and USS Stout, two amphibious warships, the USS Kearsarge and USS Ponce, and a command-and-control ship, the USS Mount Whitney. The submarine USS Providence was also in the Mediterranean. —Witnesses reported five F-18s, two C-17s and a C-130 cargo plane arrived at U.S. air base at Aviano in northern Italy, which is home to the 31st Fighter Wing.

Denmark: —Six F-16s arrived at U.S. air base in Sigonella, Sicily and could be deployed as early as Sunday; 132 support staff.

Italy: —Offered use of seven military bases: U.S. air bases at Sigonella, Sicily and Aviano in northern Italy; Italian air bases in Amendola near Foggia, Decimomannu in Sardinia, Gioia del Colle near Bari, base on Sicilian island of Pantelleria, and the military airport of Trapani, Sicily. —Proposed NATO base in Naples serve as coordination point for operation. —Says it has four anti-radar and anti-missile Tornados and six other aircraft available to fly with 15 minutes notice. —Aircraft carrier Giuseppe Garibaldi off Sicily with eight aircraft aboard.

Spain: —Sent four F-18s and a Boeing 707 refueling plane to Italy base. —Deploying a submarine, naval frigate and a surveillance plane. —Placed two bases at NATO’s disposal, Rota and Moron de la Frontera, where several U.S. Air Force planes were seen Friday.

Britain: —Said it would send Typhoon and Tornado jets to air bases, but no British fighter assets have yet been deployed, the Ministry of Defense said. —Britain’s air base in southern Cyprus, RAF Akrotiri, supporting AWACS surveillance aircraft and has a team of personnel there to coordinate British aircraft movement. —Two British frigates, HMS Westminster and HMS Cumberland, are in the Mediterranean off Libya’s coast.

Norway: —Offered six F-16s, with around 100 support staff, but operational capabilities five-six days off. —Considering contributing an Orion maritime surveillance plane.
…………………………
Gaddafi’s Libyan Air Force inventory : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Air_Force

How did a No Fly Zone enforcement involve blowing up a tank? Wow mission creep on day one. The UN mandate is for the protection of civilians, but how do you differentiate civilians from rebels, who are not civilians? The press has had trouble with that from the beginning. Will the rebels be allowed to operate MiGs or will the No Fly Zone apply only to the Gaddafi gang? Are rebel MiGs under the protective clause of “civilians” as well? Unless that tank was firing on a crowd of unarmed protestors, the prospect of the growing abuse of UN mandate is alarming.

It’s all well and good if Gaddafi gives up quickly, but all he has to do is not fold to make a mess of things.

Not often I say this, but vive le France!

My first thought when I saw the downed Libyan jet on the BBC was that it was a MiG-23/27 Flogger, but I was looking around one on Thursday and unsure if they are still flown out there?

Gaddafi has declared a ceasefire so, for now, no one will be flying anywhere……..

I am sorry but if you believe that you should check the mushrooms you had with your full english this morning !!!!!

Spain, amongst many others, never seems to get involved!

Maybe that’s the way forward? Maybe we (or rather the leaders of the “world powers”) should just ‘live and let die’. We always seem to make the situation worse anyway in the long run.

Gaddafi has declared a ceasefire so, for now, no one will be flying anywhere……..

Originally Posted by benyboy
Looks like a MIG-21 to me

Yes, you’re right. The rebels had announced that the plane was Mirage.

Spain, amongst many others, never seems to get involved!

France.

I see that British Tornado aircraft are to enforce the no-fly zone,confirming my perception ( which may well be incorrect ),that it always seems to be Britain jumping in feet first.
Which other countries are offering their air forces ?

Hi
Could be my imagination, but in the video, on the tail of the aircraft, it appears the libyan air force markings have been painted out.
cheers
Jerry

as dave allan used to say

….may your God go with you……

Looks like a MIG-21 to me.