The Greeks Vote Themselves out of Austerity!

Geoff,

I think that reports about extra EU cash for the Greeks was additional to what we already pay. I saw the amount of about 850 million extra mentioned. Dave and wee Georgie Porgie were allegedly saying no, perhaps mindful that they need plenty of spare dosh to bribe the Jocks to stay in the Union.

Hi All,
Not much into politics but did notice todays news that Cameron has said the UK will not be part of the bail out :stupid: well how is that going to work then ? The UK pays it’s money into the E.U. coffers then they dish it out to whom ever, unless our money has tracking on each note how can he stop them ? What a prat he is thinking that he can waffle on about bull like this the truth is the UK have no say in the matter simple.
It’s just more pompous oratory defecation coming from the PM who has no back bone when it comes to standing up to the EU the French/Spanish/Germans and Italians must be rolling on the floor in fits of laughter at this pillock as he is definitely getting more and more out of his depth in dealing with the EU by trying to bluff his way through parliament….:stupid:

Geoff.

Excellent piece by Philip Johnston printed in that scourge of the political ‘left’; The D. Tel. (7th July,)

It is titled: “Greece is betting that Germany will cough up to keep them in the club”/

Which sentiment underpins much of the same comment on this forum.

While Attlee was Prime Minister; good trick if he could do that. Read history; don’t rewrite it.

Don’t have to old chap ! It’s there in black and white tho’ written with more circumspection.

Attlee was present at Potsdam. The future division of Europe had already been agreed at Yalta.

Churchill was at Yalta in February 1945. Spheres of influence in Europe were discussed between Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt and agreed.

Churchill was keen to ensure that Greece remained a British fiefdom thus ensuring the restoration of the monarchy – a subject close to his heart – which event occasioned deep divisions among the Greeks.

We won’t discuss Poland’s fate.

Read Churchill’s memoirs.

Maybe not so much at the recent referendum but Syriza / Tsipras certainly campaigned on the issue of debt reduction, write-off and war reparations from Germany. And in virtually his first official duty as prime minister Alexis Tsipras visited a memorial to victims of a Nazi atrocity; the symbolic nature of that cannot have been lost on anybody.

That is true and he did indeed make that symbolic gesture but I have seen little evidence that it has left any abiding impression on the voters last Sunday, to most of whom the war and its historical repercussions mean very little. As you have already pointed out the real direct ugliness of war on the relatives of Greeks was not from Germans. That and the brutality of the civil war which followed lies most heavily, in my experience.

Blame Churchill and his habit of ‘**** licking’ monarchial arses.

While Attlee was Prime Minister; good trick if he could do that. Read history; don’t rewrite it.

Maybe not so much at the recent referendum but Syriza / Tsipras certainly campaigned on the issue of debt reduction, write-off and war reparations from Germany. And in virtually his first official duty as prime minister Alexis Tsipras visited a memorial to victims of a Nazi atrocity; the symbolic nature of that cannot have been lost on anybody.

Listening to the voices from Athens and elsewhere I did not hear a single mention of wartime history or it’s relevance, if any, to the vote on Sunday. All I heard was support for an end to “austerity” in whatever manifestation suited the speaker, and distaste for the bullying of the creditors. Which pretty much summed up the average Greek’s inability to comprehend the reasons for the position they find themselves in. It was bound to happen.

I would have thought it has actually been counter productive.

What I meant was that the current Greek government’s mandate was to ‘stand-up’ to dictates from their creditors in Europe and than means principally Germany. They also urged the population to return a ‘no’ vote in the recent referendum. This ran counter to what had been hoped for in Germany so the propagandising of wartime history played right into the Greek government’s hands.

The Greek socialist government probably haven’t entirely forgiven US and UK for siding against their grandfathers in the civil war.

Blame Churchill and his habit of ‘**** licking’ monarchial arses.

A convenient piece of propaganda that the current government of Greece has used to good effect…

…but unfortunately, a little lacking in historical accuracy!

I would have thought it has actually been counter productive.

The Greek socialist government probably haven’t entirely forgiven US and UK for siding against their grandfathers in the civil war.

For Adolf, read Angela?

A convenient piece of propaganda that the current government of Greece has used to good effect…

…but unfortunately, a little lacking in historical accuracy!

Greece was mainly occupied by Italian and Bulgarian forces during WWII, not German, and so it is these countries that were responsible for most of the murders and looting, and so presumably should be where most of the reparations should be due from?

Anyway, just after the war, the Greeks were too busy killing each other in a civil war to worry too much about reparations from Germany; and also, since the winning side in the civil war was heavily sponsored by the USA / UK shouldn’t the Greeks have reimbursed these countries too? Unfortunately, outside the minds of propagandists, ‘reparations’ have very little meaning in post-war history.

What a cheap shot! I have worked and lived in Germany and I have spent a great deal of time in Greece – pre dictatorship and post dictatorship. Basically and in every sense of the word Germany works and Greece doesn’t. Beautiful country, friendly, hospitable people but the engine has run rough for decades. And of course it should never have joined the Euro. And as an afterthought it would have helped if a few more Greeks had paid their taxes although it’s not a feature of Mediterranean life!!

Ironic, really, when you consider how, when the Allies needed Germany to be rebuilt in a hurry, just after the war, Greece (having been occupied, its inhabitants murdered, and possessions systematically looted) was persuaded to let Germany off its debts. I suspect the Greeks feel that they’ve been had; my father told me how, also just after the war, he was confronted by a “typically arrogant” (his words) Nazi pow, who told him,” You have beaten us twice in war, but we shall win the peace.” For Adolf, read Angela?

I think those who regard the Euro as a fiscal device are totally mistaken. It was a political device at the outset and remains so.

The big mistake was to attempt the creation of a currency union without a political union but the autocrats arrogantly assumed the one would follow the other. Sadly for them they got the horse and the cart the wrong way round.

JG is quite right. The loss of one member will weaken the whole edifice. And that cannot be allowed to happen. I hope I am proved wrong.

CD

CH has already pointed out that the EU will defend its empire to the death. A point with which I agree. The exit of Greece from the euro will mean that the financial markets will regard the euro as suspect particularly with regard to those members whose financial status is much like Greece eg. a tourist based agrarian economy whose artificial alignment with the powerhuse economies of central and northern Europe is responsible for the problem in the first place.

If Greece maintains the default meaning that no cash from the EU is riding to the rescue then it is effectively goodbye to any suggestion of the continuation of monetary union and the Treaty of Rome plus supplementary treaties.

I say amen to that but; it won’t happen. The EU will not allow failure.

Exactly. And by the end of this week they will have the necessary funding to limp forward another few weeks.

The EU doesn’t need to put the ‘frighteners’ on Greece, surely, they have all the power they need and more; cut-off the emergency-liquidity funds and Greece goes back into the dark-ages, literally, within days.

What Greece and the Greek people don’t seem to understand is that they are utterly bankrupt. They have no cash, apart from a few billion in gold, and are such a liability that they cannot get credit from any commercial concern; their only hope is the ECB and the IMF and no amount of voting for and end to ‘austerity’ or holding referendums will change that!

Without cash, or credit, Greece will not be able to afford anything that they do not produce themselves: food, medicine, fuel; they may have tourism but who wants to go on holiday to somewhere you can’t eat out, get sick or travel by car?

Printing new drachma will solve nothing; they will be utterly worthless outside Greece so nobody will accept them in payment outside Greece.

All I hear coming out of Greece are words like ‘democracy’ and ‘dignity’; well, Greece was left to its own democracy to blow €300billion of other people’s money…

…where was their ‘dignity’ then?

I think I can guarantee it!!