The Groshkov Saga- The Final stretch.

No. I don’t thing so! …. the sweeter things cud be his personal stuff. Considering this case and the pace at which contracts with US is being concluded neglecting more priority products, one have to wonder how yankees are doing it. Probably they make the Indians sign it in the bed itself?? :p

If media may have any doubt, they better hire some impotent accountants from around the Globe to figure out the cost of the project.

Has this been posted?

Have you followed the stories around the acquisition of French subs by Pakistan lately? Apparently losts of important people got kickbacks. Do you see any of them resigning?

Has this been posted?

“Now that a final price tag of $2.33 billion has been fixed on aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya (Admiral Gorshkov) going against the proverbial caution, perhaps it is time to look the ‘gift’ horse in the mouth.
…

Comparing INS Vikramaditya with other carriers, the officials said a 27,000-tonne Cavour class Italian vessel cost $2.2 billion, while 65,000-tonne CVF class vessel (HMS Queen Elizabeth being built in U.K.) cost $4.2 billion.”

The prices for Cavour & Queen Elizabeth show the perils of forgetting that exchange rates change, & what costs are included in prices.

Cavour is reported to have cost 1.4 to 1.5 billion euros. At the time she was ordered, that was $1.3 to $1.4bn. By the time she was launched, that was $1.7-1.8 bn. Today, it’s the same. At the time India bought Gorshkov, the price of Cavour was $1.8 – $1.9 bn.

The two CVFs are expected to cost £5.2 billion. That’s $3.85 billion each – but it includes design & infrastructure (e.g. rebuilding docks), & a sizable charge taken as a result of a decision to slow down building, most of which would not be charged to an export customer. A third carrier should cost about £2 billion, i.e. $2.95 billion at todays rate.

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jni/jni100622_1_n.shtml

bringing in a new piece already posted to a thread that deserves some love. Want some more pictures of this event!!

They probably have. The question is whether it had any effect.

No. I don’t thing so! …. the sweeter things cud be his personal stuff. Considering this case and the pace at which contracts with US is being concluded neglecting more priority products, one have to wonder how yankees are doing it. Probably they make the Indians sign it in the bed itself?? :p

If media may have any doubt, they better hire some impotent accountants from around the Globe to figure out the cost of the project.

Has this been posted?

A peep into Vikramaditya

Special Correspondent

Now that a final price tag of $2.33 billion has been fixed on aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya (Admiral Gorshkov) going against the proverbial caution, perhaps it is time to look the ‘gift’ horse in the mouth.

While arriving at the figure, the Indian Navy asserts that there has been no compromise, including on the much-required sea trials that will be conducted for 20-24 months before the aircraft carrier is handed over by December 2012.

“There will be no compromise, and all trials that are necessary will be conducted,” Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Nirmal Verma told The Hindu. The remarks assumes significance following the observations by the Comptroller and Auditor-General that sea trials were a major factor in the substantial increase in the cost.

Navy officials maintain that the aircraft carrier will be good for the next three to four decades. Its hull remains good with value additions done to modify the cruiser class to meet the force requirement. At the time of induction, it will be equivalent to the best among the contemporary carriers.

Some of the features built into the contract are replacement of the entire length of cables/wiring running into thousands of kilometres; delivering infrastructure machinery for repair and maintenance support in Indian docks; training of personnel from Indian docks and personnel on board the carrier; spare parts for 10 years from the time the carrier is to be handed; repair and technical detail documents for maintenance; and pilot training/trials.

Comparing INS Vikramaditya with other carriers, the officials said a 27,000-tonne Cavour class Italian vessel cost $2.2 billion, while 65,000-tonne CVF class vessel (HMS Queen Elizabeth being built in U.K.) cost $4.2 billion.

It took an three additional and 13 supplementary contracts for the final price to be fixed ahead of the rescheduled delivery of the 45,000-tonne Vikramaditya, bringing the curtains down on the negotiations over the price, which was increased from $1.5 billion to $2.2 billion, with the final demand touching $2.9 billion.

New Delhi has so far released more than $600 million.

VERY impressive link! Thanks for sharing. Had the Gorshkov been sitting out of service for a long period of time? The ship looked like a derelict hulk when it arrived at Sevmash.

Looks can be decieving…;)

Indian Navy personal who inspected and cleared the ship did say that the hull condition was ok. Please don go by the “rusty” view of the ship. That definetely does not mean the ship have its hull got eaten away. In most of that seemingly dirty pictures, its the paint coat thats peeling off and it have given the worst look to the hull.

Moreover, ships are given cathodic protection to prevent corrosion and Gorshkov did get that and thats probably what helped Gorshkov’s hull to be in good state even after being docked w/o any work for so long.

Russian Institute of Power Radiobuilding is the company that did the Cathodic protection for Admiral Gorshkov and their system protection is for 20-25 years. The figures that I’ve seen for others like the Dutch are 20 years….
They do mention Admiral Gorshkov as an implemented project, so it cud not be INS Vikramaditya….. i.e from mid-80s onwards their system may have been in duty…..

Ship cathode-protection systems

JSC “RIPR” collaborates with Central Research Institute “Prometey” in the sphere of equipping the vessels, boats and floating stations with cathode-protection systems.

Cathode-protection systems against corrosion of underwater parts of the bodies of sea vessels of unrestricted sailing area (incl. ice-beakers), as well as underwater parts of the bodies of floating power-plants, gas-and-oil producing platforms and other floating structures, with reduced voltage direct current with its automatic adjustment acc. to specified protection potential of the ship.

Implemented projects:

– Federal Program “Shelf” which supports production of high-tech plants and equipment for seabed mining of oil, gas and for development of hydrocarbon deposits at continental shelf of the Arctic The first large project was offshore ice-resistant fixed platform (MLSP) “Prirazlomnaya” designed for development of oil deposit of the same name at the Pechora Bay shelf of the Barents Sea. “Prirazlomnaya” iestimated operation life is 25 years for severe conditions.

– Aircraft carrier “Admiral Gorshkov”
– Cutters (boarder boats).

The unique features of the system is the use of special technologies to manufacture the anodes and reference electrodes, as well as the long-term experience to produce the intelligent power supplies.

› Technical behaviour
Output current : 50 А (Output current)
Output voltage: 24 V

› Assignment
Advantages of active cathode protection:

– full corrosion elimination for ship plating and weld joints;
– reliability;
– longevity;
– ship plating thickness margin reduction;
– minimum maintenance at maximum economical efficiency

For those not familiar with cathodic protection can read this….. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathodic_protection

Right . . . . so have the Russians been plying him with floozies, fine champagne & Bolivian marching powder to keep him sweet? :diablo:

Ah, doncha love these ancient traditions?

They probably have. The question is whether it had any effect.

Right . . . . so have the Russians been plying him with floozies, fine champagne & Bolivian marching powder to keep him sweet? :diablo:

Ah, doncha love these ancient traditions?

Conduct of senior naval officer in Gorshkov project under scanner

New Delhi: A senior navy officer, who played a crucial role in the acquisition of Admiral Gorshkov, the Russian aircraft carrier, has been placed under the scanner. Investigators are looking into whether commodore Sukhjinder Singh’s proximity to some Russians was in any way linked to problems associated with the Gorshkov project, including the escalation in cost as well as delays. Singh was in charge of the aircraft carrier project in Russia, and had been stationed there for many years. The commodore was deputed there to supervise the re-fitting and technical requirements.

The probe also focuses on his improper personal conduct.

The carrier has for long been in focus for the quantum jump in its cost — the project cost has gone up from Rs4,870 crore in 2004 to Rs11,650 crore currently. In the second week of March, during Russian prime minister Vladimir Putin’s visit to New Delhi, India had — in a controversial move — agreed to pay $2.33 billion for the refitting as against the original $974 million agreed upon in 2004. Singh was posted in Russia until about three years ago, and was probably the senior-most officer there to oversee the Gorshkov project. On his return to Delhi, he was appointed to the crucial post of principal director (aircraft carrier project) looking after the Gorshkov project from the headquarters. All of this underlines Singh’s extensive involvement in the project.

According to the navy, the formal inquiry against Singh, who till some months ago was the principal director of the project, started a few weeks ago. It was ordered after incriminating evidence emerged showing his links to some Russians.

DNA has material to establish the commodore’s involvement in activities which were unbecoming of an officer of his rank and stature.

Confirming the inquiry, a navy spokesperson told DNA, “The IN (Indian Navy) has received information about a senior naval officer who has been involved in an act of loose moral conduct. The navy has instituted an inquiry to establish whether this had any influence on the performance of his official duties. Preliminary indications are that the involvement has been at a personal level.”

A navy source said the inquiry is looking into “all aspects” of Singh’s conduct, including whether his behaviour in Russia and proximity to some Russian individuals has had any “impact on the Gorshkov deal”. The concern is whether those individuals were part of a larger conspiracy of the Russian arms industry.

The Gorshkov project took a bizarre turn when Russians demanded in mid-2008 a massive price hike for the refit, leading to many within the navy and outside to suggest scrapping the entire project. In fact, questions continue to swirl about the logic of price hike. The carrier, which was originally slated to be delivered in 2008, is now only expected in 2012. Again, through it all, Singh has had a crucial role.

A navy source told DNA that “preliminary evidence” indicates that Singh may not have played any significant role in deciding the new price.

However, Singh was a member of the cost negotiation committee (CNC) set up last year to resolve the unprecedented Russian demand for increase in refit cost. According to naval records, Singh sat through the first meeting of the CNC last year. The CNC comprised at least three admirals from the navy, some three joint secretary rank officers and others. Singh was among the junior-most.

“The inquiry is going through the records” of the CNC, sources confirmed. The one man investigation, a formal court of inquiry, would “sum up in the next few days”, they said.

Connections, implications

Project cost of Admiral Gorshkov has gone up from Rs4,870 crore in 2004 to Rs11,650 crore currently Singh was in charge of the aircraft carrier project in Russia and had been stationed there for many years Sources in the intelligence set-up said incriminating evidence detailing Singh’s improper conduct was made available to naval authorities, prompting them to start the inquiry

Investigators are also looking at his Russian contacts and if they had any links to the Russian arms industry, as well as if some of those close associations could have influenced his conduct in the Gorshkov deal.

Source

I wasn’t suggesting using Russian steam plant for the re-engineing of Vikramaditya. Access to other suppliers since the fall of the USSR has opened up the choices available…

You mean “put in an entirely different power plant” rather that “a complete rebuild of the existing power plant”. Of course, that would be quite an operation, trying to find or put together a 200k HP powerplant and fitting it into the existing hull.

The main power plant ([GEU]) of cruiser was standardized with adapted previously [EU] of the cruisers of projects 58 and 1123. In “Kiev” it was accepted four-shaft, boiler and turbine (eight boilers [KVN] 98/64), with the high parameters of vapor, by the total power of 180 000 hp [GEU] consisted of four autonomous [turbokotelnykh] groups, located on two in two machine- boiler departments, which form two independent sections and workers each on its screw propeller. Four main turbine gear aggregates of the type OF TV -12-3 made possible for ship to develop the speed of complete running of 30,7 units.

Four bronze four-blade low-noise screw propellers were used as the propellers. Ship power stations (six turbogenerators even four diesel generators with the total power of 15 000 kW) were arranged in the adjacent with the machine- boiler departments energys-section, at a rate of two to each echelon. The elements of installation, generating units and main switchboards were standardized with project 1123. For the automated management of electric power installation served the system “Terek -2”. Widely adapted the amortization of mechanisms and the use of the insulating coatings, especially in the machine rooms.

http://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/MK/2003_07/

I wasn’t suggesting using Russian steam plant for the re-engineing of Vikramaditya. Access to other suppliers since the fall of the USSR has opened up the choices available…

So in theory, with an initial service life of 1987 to 1994, she could be regarded as a ‘low mileage’ ship, but the way she was treated when laid up is an important factor too. From the photographic evidence it would appear she recieved no maintenance at all whilst awaiting a buyer, beyond occassional checks that she wasn’t leaking! For the money that has been (eventually) agreed for her reconstruction, I would have opted for a whole new ship, or at the very least a complete re engineing rather than overhauling the existing somewhat unreliable powerplant. Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing…

NOT SO SURE REENGINEER WOULD MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE GIVEN THE HISORY OF THAT PLANT…

Moskva-class

Moskva: suffered extreme machinery problems and her plant was rebuilt twice. Suffered severe fire 2 February 1975 Stationary at Sevastopol after 1983, except for one short cruise late in 1991. Remained nominally in service, but inoperable, as an accommodations hulk until stricken 7 November 1996. Scrapped in India
Leninggrad: stricken due to poor condition 24 June 1991 but hulk remained at Sevastopol through 1995. Scrapped in Greece

Kiev-class

Kiev-clas machinery was a doubled version of the Moskva machinery, and equally deficient. Experience showed these ships to be highly flamable; all suffered at least one significant fire.

Kiev: Overhauled at Nikolayev 1985. Stricken due to poor condition 30 June 1993 but retained as parts source for Gorshkov. Sold and scrapped in India
Minsk: Overhauled 1981-82 at Vladivostock. Inoperable after 1989, laid up in reserve 2/1992, stricken 30 June 1993. Towed to Shenzhen, China 8/1998 for use as a casino/entertainment complex.
Novorossiysk: Laid up in reserve 9/92, stricken 30 June 1993. Scrapped at Pohang, South Korea 1997.
Baku/Gorshkov: Renamed Gorshkov 4 Oct 1990. Lasted only 5 years before being rendered inoperable by machinery problems. Inoperable after major machinery casualty 1992, major fire in 1993. Boiler explosion and fire 2 February 1994, under repair until mid-1995; went to sea briefly 5/1995. Remained nominally in service but never deployed again. Given to India, on condition that she would be refurished in Russia. To enter IN service as INS Vikramaditya

Kuznetsov class

Generally based on the Kiev hull but with significant enlargement and improvements. The ships use the Kiev machinery and the only operational ship has suffered machinery problems.

Any latest pictures on the Vikra…

IN is expecting 30 years of service from her.

Thank you Bager1968 for the information. I wonder what the interior condition of the vessel was like- as Obi Wan Russell pointed out, I’d be surprised if more than cursory checks were done on the vessel while she was laid up. How much service life does the Indian Navy expect to get out of her? From the pictures, I’d be surprised if there wasn’t some significant structural rework needed as well.

So in theory, with an initial service life of 1987 to 1994, she could be regarded as a ‘low mileage’ ship, but the way she was treated when laid up is an important factor too. From the photographic evidence it would appear she recieved no maintenance at all whilst awaiting a buyer, beyond occassional checks that she wasn’t leaking! For the money that has been (eventually) agreed for her reconstruction, I would have opted for a whole new ship, or at the very least a complete re engineing rather than overhauling the existing somewhat unreliable powerplant. Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing…

To put it simply (and actually be helpful):

Baku was laid down in 1978 at Nikolayev South (Shipyard No.444) in Ukraine, launched in 1982, and commissioned in 1987 (named for the city of Baku in the Soviet Republic of Azerbaijan).

The ship was renamed Admiral Gorshkov after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, as the city of Baku was now in independent Azerbaijan. Sergey Gorshkov was responsible for the expansion of the Soviet Navy during the Cold War.

In 1994, following a boiler room explosion, the ship was docked for a year of repairs. Although she returned to service in 1995, she was finally withdrawn in 1996 and offered for sale.

Baku, 1989:

Had the Gorshkov been sitting out of service for a long period of time? The ship looked like a derelict hulk when it arrived at Sevmash.

Google will find you several detailed accounts of her history very quickly.

a pic gallery that simply has to be SEEN!!!!!

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?129481-Aircraft-Carriers-Intensive-PIX%21%21&p=4821907&viewfull=1#post4821907

VERY impressive link! Thanks for sharing. Had the Gorshkov been sitting out of service for a long period of time? The ship looked like a derelict hulk when it arrived at Sevmash.

a pic gallery that simply has to be SEEN!!!!!

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?129481-Aircraft-Carriers-Intensive-PIX%21%21&p=4821907&viewfull=1#post4821907

Nice find, lots of nice Gorshki pics!

Aircraft Carrier Admiral Gorshkov

(Source: Press Information Bureau India; issued March 15, 2010)

Contracts and supplementary agreements comprising repair and re-equipping, logistic supports, training, etc were concluded with Russian side for acquisition of the aircraft carrier, ex-Admiral Gorshkov, in January 2004 at a cost of US Dollars 974 million.

The Russian side submitted a revised Master Schedule indicating a delay in the project and an increase in price for repair and re-equipping of the aircraft carrier, due to increase in scope of work not originally envisaged.

The Government approved the proposal for conducting negotiations with the Russian side for finalizing a revised Repair and Re-equipping Contract and other related contracts/agreements affected due to delay in the project and Additional Works projected.

The negotiations have since been concluded by the Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC).

The revised cost of USD 2,330 million has been approved by the Government. Prices for the works to be carried out under the revised contracts/agreements are fixed.

The aircraft carrier was originally scheduled to be delivered in August 2008. The ship’s delivery is re-scheduled to December, 2012.

Re-scheduling of the ship’s delivery and revision in its cost were necessitated due to emergence of Additional Works projected, detailed agreed scope of trials, etc.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Manish Tewari and others in Lok Sabha today. (ends)

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/113178/india-details-new-agreement-on-russian-aircraft-carrier.html