The Hunt For The [Indian] Bf109 – A 2006 Thread Springs Back To Life

Jagan

Rare Aero have asked me if you would contact me with a PM sending me your e mail address. Hopefully, it will be possible to liase with you in order to take forward actions that might well result in this matter being resolved to the satisfaction of all concerned. Lets hope all can work together with this aim in sight.

Meanwhile, Rare Aero have also asked me to make known some of the efforts they have thus far taken with the Indian authorities, and individuals, to resolve matters. The following are some of the letters that have been sent by Rare Aero:

To Mr. Kamalesh Sharma, High Commissioner from Rare Aero, September 2006, asking for clarification on ownership and enclosing copies of defamatory news articles etc. No response.

March 2007 a chase up letter, again no response or acknowledgement.

Another letter was later sent (date not to hand!) to the same person. This time Rare Aero enclosed details of the man who had evidently made the initial complaint to Indian Police and Rare Aero passed on information as to how much this person had asked for “to clear the matter up”. The person concerned was one X.X.Xxxxx (an ex-minister of education) and he had asked for £5,000.00. Rare Aero also gave them details of another Indian who went to Jersey to seek out Rare Aero and who again, for a ‘small’ fee, could make the problem ‘disappear’. He was Mr. N***** P****, a councillor from South London. He also purported to act for a newspaper in India. Again, no response was received from the High Commission.

Rare Aero wish to make the point that they have been forthright, open and transparent with the Indian authorities in trying to resolve this. However, the matter always seems to stall with the only developments having been no official responses and various Indian nationals wanting sums of money to help finally to “resolve” matters. Meanwhile, the rumour mill with questions about Rare Aero’s actions grinds ever onwards – fed by internet discussions and the Indian press.

Might seem a daft Idea but its a bit like some dealings I had with some Arab gentlemen.I ended up going through the British trade department as it was then and being on a semi official level got responses as the people at the other end did not seem to think I was important enough to deserve a response but a government department was a different thing.Got results.
May be worth them trying unless they have already ?.

this person had asked for “to clear the matter up”. The person concerned was one X.X.Xxxxx (an ex-minister of education) and he had asked for £5,000.00.

Rare Aero also gave them details of another Indian who went to Jersey to seek out Rare Aero and who again, for a ‘small’ fee, could make the problem ‘disappear’. He was Mr. N***** P****, a councillor from South London. He also purported to act for a newspaper in India. Again, no response was received from the High Commission.
.

Andy some things never change :rolleyes:

PM sent..

Jagan

Rare Aero have asked me if you would contact me with a PM sending me your e mail address. Hopefully, it will be possible to liase with you in order to take forward actions that might well result in this matter being resolved to the satisfaction of all concerned. Lets hope all can work together with this aim in sight.

Meanwhile, Rare Aero have also asked me to make known some of the efforts they have thus far taken with the Indian authorities, and individuals, to resolve matters. The following are some of the letters that have been sent by Rare Aero:

To Mr. Kamalesh Sharma, High Commissioner from Rare Aero, September 2006, asking for clarification on ownership and enclosing copies of defamatory news articles etc. No response.

March 2007 a chase up letter, again no response or acknowledgement.

Another letter was later sent (date not to hand!) to the same person. This time Rare Aero enclosed details of the man who had evidently made the initial complaint to Indian Police and Rare Aero passed on information as to how much this person had asked for “to clear the matter up”. The person concerned was one X.X.Xxxxx (an ex-minister of education) and he had asked for £5,000.00. Rare Aero also gave them details of another Indian who went to Jersey to seek out Rare Aero and who again, for a ‘small’ fee, could make the problem ‘disappear’. He was Mr. N***** P****, a councillor from South London. He also purported to act for a newspaper in India. Again, no response was received from the High Commission.

Rare Aero wish to make the point that they have been forthright, open and transparent with the Indian authorities in trying to resolve this. However, the matter always seems to stall with the only developments having been no official responses and various Indian nationals wanting sums of money to help finally to “resolve” matters. Meanwhile, the rumour mill with questions about Rare Aero’s actions grinds ever onwards – fed by internet discussions and the Indian press.

Hi all , Who are Rare Aero Ltd? Are they a British company ? Does anyone know aircraft location ? It would be intresting too know if any sort of restoration has been started !!

Steve.

And if they want any Bf-109 Fuselage bits made?

Bof B 109 in India

Hi all , Who are Rare Aero Ltd? Are they a British company ? Does anyone know aircraft location ? It would be intresting too know if any sort of restoration has been started !!

Steve.

It has bugged every dealing (albeit limited!) that I have thus far had in India in relation to old aeroplanes

Bugs + India + old aeroplanes = termites + elephant stables + DH9’s

Jagan

Thank you for your honest and straightforward responses, which are certainly helpful and illuminating.

I understand your sentiments entirely about the way things sometimes are in India with coruption. It has bugged every dealing (albeit limited!) that I have thus far had in India in relation to old aeroplanes. One has to have experienced it to have believed it!!

Lets hope that somehow this can be resolved, at least to the point that this project can move on and thus provide the worldwide historic aviation community with another restored Messerschmitt 109 and a genuine Battle of Britain survivor. That is surely the wish of most. Clearly, Rare Aero are reluctant to do anything all the time this cloud hangs over things and if it could eventually be established that no claim for the actual airframe is hanging over it from a third party (or parties), and the issue is really only about alleged wrongdoing or coruption by those who sold the aeroplane, then it is far more likely that the aeroplane will see the light of day sooner rather than later. However, some absolute clarification is required, I suspect, before that can happen.

Your help in batting for both sides, Jagan, and in doing the right thing, will hopefully help Rare Aero put this issue to bed once and for all.

BTW not that they (media, police) dont know where the aircraft is

http://www.hindu.com/2007/10/20/stories/2007102054060400.htm

The former Minister, S.K. Kanta, who was the first to file a complaint with the local police about the disappearance of the priceless antique gifted to the college by the State Government to help engineering college students, told presspersons here that the CoD filed the charge sheet on October 15. Others whose names are in the charge sheet are present and former members of the HKES, including Basavaraj Patil, Sharad Rampure, Shivasharanappa Mantale, Shivasharanappa Allad, Subash B. Bijapure, Bhimashankar Bilagundi, M.K. Nagathan, Appasab Deshmukh, R.S. Hosagouda, Vijaykumar Deshmukh, R.V. Naganagowda, Sampathkumar Loya, B.G. Patil, Girish Naidu, the Bangalore-based collector of antique items, and principal of the PDA College of Engineering, V.D. Mythri.

Later, a deal was struck between Girish Naidu and a Thailand-based collector, Watana Chesurakal, for Rs. 3 lakh.

The aircraft’s present owner was Rare Aero Ltd, Jersey, JE48PW, Channel Islands.

Andy,

Some answers to the best of my knowledge

If seventeen people were charged in relation to this alleged offence have any been prosecuted after all this long time? If so, what was the outcome? If they were not prosecuted, why not? Were the charges dropped?

As of 2007, they were chargesheeted. I havent followed the case after that. Judicial process in India can take a long time. If they had been acquitted, it hadnt been in the news, and i would welcome any such news to the effect.

Have the authorities in India contacted you about your intimate knowledge of this episode? If not, I wonder why not?

I have had contact in the initial days, when they needed photographs of the aircraft, it appeared that I had the only ones that they could tap. And I did provide them to the Police. I am sure this is known in the UK as well. Certainly a well known aircraft conservationist in the UK was told of this fact. What happened after that?, i have moved on, I have changed jobs, I have been travelling around, so I havent really had any contact after that. You would see I have fallen behind on updates on my site as well. But I promise you I will get the updates soon. if there is an acquittal, or dropping of charges, i will be the first to post that information here. I bat for both sides.

Why have the authorities not contacted the apparent current custodians of the Messerschmitt, I wonder, when their identity is clearly in the public domain? If they are so intent on pursuing alleged wrong-doing I would have thought this would have been a pretty obvious starting point.

My reading on this is – at this point they dont seem to be interested in recovering the aircraft – else they would have made some sort of contact. But they did seem intent on nailing the people involved in the ealrier transactions – I am fully in support of that.

Why have letters from Rare Aero to the Indian High Commission seeking to resolve matters all been ignored?

You have to realise that the Air Attache’s job is not to resolve issues raised in sundry letters that they get from individuals. the Air Attache’s job profile to the best of my knowledge involves many issues. You do agree with the kind of cooperation work that the attache is doing in the UK (coordinating exercises, aircraft procurement, training of indian pilots etc), addressing letters from private organisations individuals will be every low on the totem pole. i can vouch for the fact that they get dozens of letters, from enthusiasts asking for permission to do aircraft spotting, visiting airfields, to business entities asking for spares, or offering to supply spares, to musuems asking for manuals, etc etc.. hell even I get a lot of these emails that I just cant respond to. Who knows what the priority of the air attache is? Moreover what would have happened is that the Air Attache would not have had the authoritiy to repsond to this, he may have forwarded it to the Air HQ who are even .. well you get the point.

Wouldnt a letter to the actual people who filed the case be more helpful in clearing up things? Like one to the DGP Karnataka Police?

Also, might it not be the fact that those seventeen were possibly in receipt of payment for the said Messerschmitt (or at least pocketed the money when perhaps they were not entitled to do so) and the complainant was an agrieved individual who, perhaps, did not get his “cut”? Having worked in India on projects involving the acquisition and purchase of old aircraft I am not unaware as to how the “Indian system” works!.

you know it better than me. but if that was really the case (people getting cuts, some not getting it) then it is time that all of them pay the price for their greed. We cant have corruption continue in this country anymore. I take pride in the fact that if there was corruption (and by the police investigation – there seems to have been) – then i played a small part in supporting the investigation however small the part may be. So yes, maybe someone who didnt get a cut started this ruckus. But hey, if it forces the next guy to go straight, I am happy 🙂

You also have to understand, regardless of the guy who didnt get a cut who made the complaint – the entire police department of of the state has to be complicit in a conspiracy if the case had draged so long – that is so unfair to the PD.

I also note through Rare Aero’s statement the reference to individuals who contacted them promising to clear things “up for a fee”. And very happy they didnt succumb to that approach. IMO, they would do India a favour if they published the details of these contacts..

yes it sucks that Rare Aero and some of my own friends in UK are getting affected by it. But what to do – we are like this only (indian slang)

Jagan

I have some questions:

If seventeen people were charged in relation to this alleged offence have any been prosecuted after all this long time? If so, what was the outcome? If they were not prosecuted, why not? Were the charges dropped?

Have the authorities in India contacted you about your intimate knowledge of this episode? If not, I wonder why not?

Why have the authorities not contacted the apparent current custodians of the Messerschmitt, I wonder, when their identity is clearly in the public domain? If they are so intent on pursuing alleged wrong-doing I would have thought this would have been a pretty obvious starting point.

Why have letters from Rare Aero to the Indian High Commission seeking to resolve matters all been ignored?

Also, might it not be the fact that those seventeen were possibly in receipt of payment for the said Messerschmitt (or at least pocketed the money when perhaps they were not entitled to do so) and the complainant was an agrieved individual who, perhaps, did not get his “cut”? Having worked in India on projects involving the acquisition and purchase of old aircraft I am not unaware as to how the “Indian system” works!

I realise that you might not be able to answer some of these questions – or you might be unwilling to. However, for those you cannot answer, anyway, then perhaps just posing them might give others food for thought.

There is more to this story than just the Indian version. I think its important to understand that.

The thing I find amusing about all this is how everyone is tip-toeing around who ‘actually’ now owns the aircraft, with nods and winks by ‘those in the know’. Or indeed, where it actually is now!

No one wants to get their ass sued? 😀
(actual reason is, the moment we take names, this thread is going to be pulled down by the forum owners – understandably they wouldnt want to be subject to any legal proceedings either)

It appears to me that the Rare Aero have described the situation pretty simply ie someone offered the college items in exchange for the ME-109 and the college accepted the offer. The “entrepreneur” who made the trade then sold the aircraft on to Rare Aero and it was exported from India.
It seems that later someone else has come along and decided that it was a poor deal and feels that items exchanged were worth a lot less than what he considers to be the true value of the ME-109 so the police are called in to try to get the aeroplane back – a case of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

it was true that a deal appeared to have been made before the official case opened. but the export had not yet happened. from what I know as told to me by the police at that time – the export should have been on hold till the ownership issues were to be resolved (who owned it? State of Karnataka? City of Gulbarga? HKES Society? ). But while it was yet to be resolved and as far as the police know – the aircraft was still in India when the investigation started. The then seller reportedly told the investigation team that the aircraft was kept in india and it would n’t be exported out, and then he went missing.

It is also a fact that the indian air force approached the college and told them not to move the aircraft when the aircraft was still in the college. Very soon after this first approach by the IAF was made – the aircraft was moved out.

i was privy to a lot of correspondence that happened at that time – and I can prove this beyond a fact (about the IAF’s interest – the aircraft being moved in a hurry after that expression of interest etc). At no point did the college inform the IAF that a deal had been made and the aircraft was going to be shipped out. Infact the college officials assured the opposite. No wonder they are in soup now?

In my view the key operative portion in Rare Aero’s statement is

we are in no doubt that the transaction was correctly and legally carried out on the basis that it was their property to dispose of

it is exactly this basis that was being challenged in the Police case.

Not my intention – but I am deliberately stirring the pot a bit.

We have different values, and we are comparing apples with oranges, but I stand by my other comments.

Bruce

With due respect to Jagan, there does seem to be an element of wanting to eat your cake and have it too.

There are many examples of aircraft that have come out of India in the past thirty years – Spitfires, Tempests, the Hurricane, and others. They have survived only down to healthy neglect – this seeming to be the Indian way.
Bruce

I have to admit Bruce that could across as both slightly arrogant and patronising.

So in the west we chop up and scrap the aircraft until there are none left. Then they become collectible and very desirable (with the associated monetary value) so we look to countries where they are still in existence, but aren’t treated with the same reverence and don’t have the same monetery value, and basically you’re saying that if you don’t look after them to our standards you don’t deserve to have them.

All this under the guise of being the guardian for future generations. The aircraft mentioned are rare, but not last of type, or historically very significant (as in being used for a particularly famous exploit).
Do you really think if that Bf109 wasn’t worth north of a £1million there would be such a fuss over it and we’d be having this debate?

Your post may not have intended to come across that way, but is certainly easy to interpret that way.

I had no knowledge of this Messerschmitt or the wheelings and dealings until I read this thread today.
It appears to me that the Rare Aero have described the situation pretty simply ie someone offered the college items in exchange for the ME-109 and the college accepted the offer. The “entrepreneur” who made the trade then sold the aircraft on to Rare Aero and it was exported from India.
It seems that later someone else has come along and decided that it was a poor deal and feels that items exchanged were worth a lot less than what he considers to be the true value of the ME-109 so the police are called in to try to get the aeroplane back – a case of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
Over the years the classic car and motorcycle worlds have been littered with deals where potentially valuable basket cases have been sold after years of storage for a lot less than what others believe is their perceived worth. The moral of the story is that anyone wanting to sell a potentially valuable item should do their research before agreeing to any deal. It seems that in this case no one at the college did any research and took the first offer going.
Perceived values is a minefield anyway. As an example what was Bluebird K7 worth when it finally surfaced. Who would have wanted to buy it and keep it in “as recovered condition”. From one point of view it was a priceless artefact even though it was basically a load of bent aluminium admittedly bent ali with a significant history) which would have meant little had it been displayed in recovered condition. The restored K7 is a different matter altogether. I would regard it as genuinely priceless as it is a live machine AND as a bonus contains a great deal of material from the original boat. It would mean something and be easily identifiable to almost anyone who knows a little about the Campbells and fast boats / hydroplanes BUT to get to the stage where it will be complete again has meant huge amounts of hours and large amounts of money. Without someone prepared to invest that time and effort it could be argued that the recovered boat had no financial value beyond scrap metal value.
The same must apply to old cars, motorcycles and aircraft. They are only worth whatever someone willing to restore them is prepared to pay.

Hi Jagan,

Thanks for the reply, and indeed for taking my post in the spirit in which it was meant!

I would not expect you to answer otherwise, with respect to the location of the aircraft, but it does throw up a wider point – Yes they are still there, but if the work that has been done compromises original material that would normally have been used in any conservation attempt (as we would understand it), then that is not good for the long term future of the aircraft. Further, as has been stated elsewhere, the DH9’s recovered 10 years ago (I have seen the pictures of them at the palace, and have seen the aircraft under restoration), would have turned to dust by now had they not been recovered when they were. So, I do feel that time is of the essence. How many have been lost that we dont know about?

In time, and with world trade being what it is, there is no reason why aircraft cannot gravitate back to India.

With respect to the law – Rare Aero have made a statement that they consider that they followed local laws, and that they have made representations to the authorities to clear this up. Unless and until that is followed up, they are in a state of flux. This situation will clearly continue to develop in the coming months and years.

Bruce

The thing I find amusing about all this is how everyone is tip-toeing around who ‘actually’ now owns the aircraft, with nods and winks by ‘those in the know’. Or indeed, where it actually is now!

And I have no idea!!!

It’s good to have a debate about these things is it not??…………..

The middleman doesn’t seem to have registered yet!

There are many examples of aircraft that have come out of India in the past thirty years – Spitfires, Tempests, the Hurricane, and others. They have survived only down to healthy neglect – this seeming to be the Indian way. Of the aircraft that remain in India, we do have to carefully consider what would have happened to them. Take the Firefly at Goa, or the excavated Spitfire VIII as examples. With the very greatest of respect, it can hardly be argued that they have been carefully conserved for the future. If that is what the Messerschmitt had to look forward to, then perhaps for the aircrafts sake, it is better that is is with an understanding owner.

Bruce,

From my point of view, I would take the Firefly in Goa or the Spitfire in Ambala that I can anyday go over and see to something sitting in UK that I can never hope to see. Plain and simple. Till the time the field picks up in India and the money flows in – these aircraft are still around and will under go a restoration when possible.

anyway thats just part of it.

Yes you are welcome to export which ever aircraft you want – but follow the law – plain and simple. The next lot of Aircraft exporters /middlemen (Sadly my own countrymen) will look over their shoulders due to this episode , and so will anyone looking towards procuring such examples from India.

With regard to the reporting in the Indian press, I do wonder why no-one ever asked Jagan – who did and indeed does know what happened to the aircraft! It would not have been difficult to trace the owners or the aircraft, yet no-one ever did. One has to wonder why….? I’m not incidentally suggesting that Jagan has any involvement in this – just that it should have been relatively easy for the authorities to trace the aircraft.

The moment the aircraft went out of the country, the authorities focused on what they could do easily – nail the people they could and by the link to the indictment above – they did.

I think that the Indian museums need to show that they can compete on a world stage, and treat their aircraft in the same way as western museums do, or they are fated forever to be on the back foot, with collectors seeking a better future for them.

If this sounds negative, then I do apologise – I just felt it needed to be said….

i have no objection to that. just respect the local laws while you are at it.

……. There are two sides to every story…….

Not wanting to get embroiled in this argument but watching interested from my sideline/on the fence/armchair.

However, aren’t there three sides to this story – the middleman as well? 🙂

Roger Smith.