The mole's role is a hole

If I have understood the spat between GA and JG correctly the assertion is that many of man’s greatest achievements have come from the ideas and genius of special individuals. But that that cannot be because no individual works in isolation.

To be honest, I don’t think you have understood my argument properly – my fault, I’m sure.

No-one in their right mind could possibly deny the existence of individual genius and I’ve not seen anyone here do so.

What I am saying is that the inspired ideas of these gifted individuals nevertheless relied on the mundane work of others to bring them to fruition.

For example, it was Michelangelo’s unique genius that first visualised his statue of David, but that vision would have remained inside his head and been unknown to the world had someone not quarried the marble and someone else not made the tools that Michelangelo used to create his masterpiece. I’m sure he found the availablility of marble and suitable tools intensely relevant at that time.

No man is an island, and all that. 🙂

If I have understood the spat between GA and JG correctly the assertion is that many of man’s greatest achievements have come from the ideas and genius of special individuals. But that that cannot be because no individual works in isolation.

Surely the ideas, which are the basis for what follows, are the work, solely of the mind of the genius. The fact that the idea can only be realised with the help of third parties to make an instrument, build a studio, bind a book or cook a meal is quite irrelevant.

I don’t accept that the necessity of having the tools to realise their talent detracts from the inate ability of our finest actors, writers, sportsmen, artists, philosophers and so on. That has applied through history no less than it does today.

Fer cryin’ out loud, how infantile can you get?

I’m confident you’ll show us before too long, John.

Yes it is, especially for you.

I suppose Beethoven’s piano composed the 5th and the 9th – just for starters.

Milton’s hunger would have deprived us of his literature.

Fer cryin’ out loud, how infantile can you get?

I know nothing of the sort.

All you have presented in response to my common-sense argument that even the most talented of individuals depends on others to support and enable them is your usual bluster.

Not a lot, is it?

Re 30

Absolute and utter tosh! And you know it.

Nobody said these people did owe their genius to a committee. What a bizarre suggestion.

The fact is, however, that their individual genius would have been of little use without the groups and individuals who supported and enabled them in a variety of practical ways.

It’s just common sense.

No but, the genius of my thoughts – always directed towards busily correcting you, particularly, – come from one individual. See how lucky you are and you don’t appreciate it!

The people that I mentioned do not owe their inventive genius to a committee. They might have had someone to change their loo rolls.

All the world’s greatest discoveries and inventions have come from the efforts and genius of individuals or groups of two or three people. Shakespeare, Bach, Beethoven, Milton, Chaucer, Whittle, Baird, Purcell, Elgar, Pasteur, Michaelangelo, Da Vinci (not the Code) Wright Bros. Einstein, Turing, Fellowes, Newton, Fleming, Edison – I’m running out of space, but you take my point.

Well I see your point, but it is a flawed one.

None of these remarkable people worked in complete isolation from the community around them, let alone from the rest of humanity.

Someone else built the studio that Da Vinci worked in, someone else assembled Beethoven’s piano.

Milton’s Paradise would have been lost forever if someone else hadn’t grown the food he ate.

Did you build the components of the computer that you use to bestow the fruits of your wisdom upon the rest of us? Do you personally generate the electricity that powers it?

Of course not.

I was going to write a great long reply about the great things that humans have achieved by working together, turning wasteland into farmland, sending men to the moon, changing the face of the planet into cities, etc…. but I can’t be bothered any more.

Re 13

Derekf

China is a capitalist country loosely veneered with a millimeter of socialism. When a country starts its progress towards its industrial revolution from a base of zero. The only way is the way up.

“…..What humans can achieve when they work together…” Well that’s a new one on me! When did that start? You must be referring to the Great Wall of China. If so, I concede.

All the world’s greatest discoveries and inventions have come from the efforts and genius of individuals or groups of two or three people. Shakespeare, Bach, Beethoven, Milton, Chaucer, Whittle, Baird, Purcell, Elgar, Pasteur, Michaelangelo, Da Vinci (not the Code) Wright Bros. Einstein, Turing, Fellowes, Newton, Fleming, Edison – I’m running out of space, but you take my point.

“…. The moles role….”

Just a play on words ! Although in truth, it appears that the ‘mole’ dug herself a ‘hole’.

Over here we still had old technology which i would guess the austerity period after the war didn’t help.

Gary.
Being an old biker at heart, I’m often reminded of Lord and Lady Docker riding around in their gold plated Daimler while BSA churned out the same old leaky singles and twins.
Meanwhile in Japan………..

Laughable really.

A.

Can’t pick many holes in that diatribe…

Neither can I.

Andy seems to have got it about right, and his account certainly tallies with my own memory.

After ww11 the German industry and the Japanese industry was rebuilt ,they started from scratch.Transport modernised and invested in.
Over here we still had old technology which i would guess the austerity period after the war didn’t help .
We have clattered from one government to another and investment doesn’t seem to happen [ well only when some fat cat will be getting something out of it].
Moving forward to today look at the row now over the HS2 rail link.Whether people agree with it or not it is indicitive of the problems over here.
Don’t forget that the up and coming countries and markets are run by sweat shops and slave labour,not really a route i would want to happen over here thanks.

Can’t pick many holes in that diatribe…;):) We won the war, with help, then lost the colonies with help but never lost sight of the fact that the world owed us a living. And as you so rightly say management and unions can take the blame in equal measure.

Please don’t be a cretin and resort to petty toilet insults, we’re supposed to be grown ups on here.

Chronic underinvestment in a state owned company is still the responsibility of the state. But if you knew anything about cars from the British Leyland era, you’d know that many of the faults were not with investment, they were with poor quality checks and standards.

Who says we’re supposed to be adults here? I certainly have no intention of behaving like an adult to the likes of the sort people who congregate here.
Furthermore, much of what I see writtten on here (you can include yourself in that too) mitigates against pretty much everyone here being an adult, and if you insist on talking cr*p, then I’ll make toilet references and call you out on it.
And maybe I am a cretin but as the man once said: it takes one to know one.

Going on to British Leyland, which with dull predicability you did, the problem was underinvestment. Has it ever occured to anyone that the original owners of Austin and Morris and all the other constituent companies that made up what was initially BMC, couldn’t get out and get their fat rewards for being nationalised quick enough..?
And British Leyland wasn’t actually nationalised until 1975, so I suggest their problems might have started much earlier than that.
They wanted out because they woke up to the knowledge that they weren’t going to be able to compete in World markets in a post war, post empire World–well not without sticking their hands in their pockets and investing. So it was easier to run with a handout and go.
The same with aviation–in fact run by an even bigger group of spivs if that was possible, and the railways, three out of the four constiuent companies who made up British Railways asked to be nationalised (The Great Western didn’t). That’s why we don’t make motorbikes here anymore because the Government were not interested in bailing them out and quite rightly because they were even more crappily built than the cars.

In other countries of course, governments very wisely assisted their manufacturing industries through the bad times, knowing that happy workers pay tax and don’t sponge off the system.
So, when last year, despite a World recession (well we’re told there’s one by our masters because the British economy is actually f*cked but no one dare admit because it doesn’t win votes) happy German BMW workers were on seven day shifts and full overtime trying to fill all the orders for the far east.
Just imagine what ‘Just Call Me Dave’ and that other other mindless t**t from The Meaningless Party’ who keeps him in the job would make of that. I bet they’d nearly p*ss themselves with glee if we were ever in that fortunate position. But then again of course, the krauts always did take a long term view of investment over the spiv-ism of this miserable little pellet of land.

And as I remain non-aligned, yes before with further dull predictability you raise it, the unions at places like Longbridge were a spanner in the works, and the work force were certainly very poor in productivity terms. Labour relations in this unhappy country were certainly a problem in the post war period. Sadly I think further self interest was at work here too, with senior union people doing quite nicely thank you off the backs of the people they were meant to represent–very sad.

In closing, up until very recently, I owned and drove a product of British Leyland.
Much of the design ethos which went into their vehicles was actually sound.
Dead easy to spanner too, parts were cheap and spares lived throughout so many models that it was easy to find them.
Surprisingly rugged too.

Please don’t be a cretin and resort to petty toilet insults…..

Right, you! These irony detectors cost money, I’ll have you know. 😡

There are feathers, little brass cogs and bits of glass all over my office floor now, and I want to know where to send the bill.

And frankly if you believe that sh*t then you probably do need a helper in the bathroom of a morning.

Could you indicate which industry you’re refering to..?
I’ll happily discuss specifics with you on that score.
I can furnish practical examples if you want–I have a 1964 Francis Barnett in my workshop which is a bag of sh*t compared with a Honda of the same vintage.
Could it be something to do with chronic under-investment…?
Cars, electronics, motorbikes, railways, chemicals, etc etc.

Please don’t be a cretin and resort to petty toilet insults, we’re supposed to be grown ups on here.

Chronic underinvestment in a state owned company is still the responsibility of the state. But if you knew anything about cars from the British Leyland era, you’d know that many of the faults were not with investment, they were with poor quality checks and standards.

State control destroyed most of the UK manufacturing industry.

And frankly if you believe that sh*t then you probably do need a helper in the bathroom of a morning.

Could you indicate which industry you’re refering to..?
I’ll happily discuss specifics with you on that score.
I can furnish practical examples if you want–I have a 1964 Francis Barnett in my workshop which is a bag of sh*t compared with a Honda of the same vintage.
Could it be something to do with chronic under-investment…?
Cars, electronics, motorbikes, railways, chemicals, etc etc.

Once again a thread descends into a tedious left/right slanging match with both sides stuck on ‘transmit’ at maximum wattage and no one else listening because they’re bored.
F*ck me my patience is wearing thin with this sh*t.
Surely anyone intelligent enough to be able to wipe their own bottom in the mornings should be able to see that unbridled capitalism is no healthier than unbridled socialism/communism–call it what you will.
Neither system has really worked and unless you’re totally on the side of the rich, and don’t mind seeing the small man screwed over then raw capitalism isn’t your answer and unless you want to see everything rounded down to the lowest common denominator then socialism appears to be not much better.