Good evening everyone, my name is Robin Perrie and I’m a reporter with The Sun newspaper. For nine months now I have been looking into the story of Dennis Copping and his P-40 Kittyhawk which crashed in the Sahara in Egypt in 1942 and was discovered in 2012.
I know this subject has been discussed many times on these forums so I thought people would be interested in hearing the latest information with regards to Dennis’s potential remains. I would also like to make a request for further assistance.
We published Dennis’s story in The Sun earlier this month (on 17/10/15) which can be read here http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/6695606/Mystery-of-RAF-pilot-who-crashed-in-Sahara.html?CMP=spklr-_-Editorial-_-TWITTER-_-TheSunNewspaper-_-20151017-_-Features-_-257503419-_-Imageandlink
I know there have been a number of conflicting claims over certain aspects of the story and in an attempt to sort the speculation from the facts I have travelled to Ireland twice to meet Dennis’s next of kin, done an FoI request of the MoD, spoken to press officers at the MoD and the Egyptian Embassy in London numerous times and have interviewed the head of forensic medicine at Cairo University, the leader of the Italian team which found the human remains and a number of British aviation and medical experts whose help has been invaluable.
I also secured the support of John Nichol, the former RAF navigator who was shot down and taken hostage in the first Gulf War, who has taken up Dennis’s case.
One of the first confusions to clear up is that I am now positive there was never two sets of remains, which has been mentioned on here a couple of times.
The potential of a second set appears to be simply one of those “fog of war” moments given the lack of clarity among all of the different snippets of information.
The bones were found by the Italian team in June 2012 around 5km to the south east of the Kittyhawk.
The Italians left them in situ and they were later removed from the desert by the Egyptian authorities (The Italian team had a military escort with them as is common on expeditions in the Western Desert).
On 23/2/13 the Egyptian Military Attache Liaison Branch wrote to the Defence Attache at the British Embassy in Cairo to inform him of the result of DNA tests which had been carried out on the remains.
This letter was released to me as part of the FoI request and can be seen at the above link to the story we published. I have also attached it to this post. The redactions are the MoD’s.
The letter states that: “1 – A DNA test of the human remains discovered at the wreck site was performed several times by the Medical Researches Central Labs, the results were negative due to the fact that the specimens of the remains are too old and contained parasitic and bacterial impurities, in addition to their direct exposure to sunrays which caused damage and a decrease in DNA.
“2 – The test was repeated using several techniques to try to increase DNA purity.
“3 – The results showed that the DNA in all the specimens received by the labs come from the same person and that it was impossible to determine his nationality.”
One expert told me that he considers it very unlikely that it would be impossible to recover DNA due to the age of the remains (scientists in Germany have extracted DNA from the fossilised leg bone of a human who died about 400,000 years ago – http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25193442 ).
But another issue with this letter is the obvious – if they were unable to extract sufficient DNA to compare with another sample, how could they compare the DNA from each bone?
After a very limited discussion within the MoD and the FCO it was decided to accept the findings and on 14/3/13 the Defence Attache at the British Embassy in Cairo wrote to the Egyptian Military Attache Liaison Branch to say: “I am grateful for the thoroughness of the analysis and fully accept its findings.”
It appears that no British official ever asked the simple question of how they were able to know that all the DNA in the different bones matched if they were unable to extract DNA.
I pressed the MoD press office on this matter and was told I was drawing incorrect conclusions.
Dennis’s family are very fair and accept the conclusions we have drawn might, for some reason, be incorrect – they would just have liked someone to ask the obvious question.
Efforts to clarify matters surrounding the tests have hit a brick wall. Repeated requests for help to the press office at the Egyptian Embassy in London have not produced a response.
And in an attempt to track down where the tests took place I did a simple google search for – “Medical Researches Central Labs” Cairo – which produces this message – “No results found”.
The head of forensic medicine at Cairo University was lined up to conduct DNA tests but this was an informal, unofficial arrangement and in the event she never got to see the remains.
The Italian team leader – who was very helpful and forthcoming with my inquiries – had no more knowledge of the whereabouts of the bones once they had been removed from the desert.
So that is where we are today – the remains must presumably now either be in storage in whichever lab performed the DNA tests in February 2013 or have been disposed of.
Dennis’s family are still very keen to try and hold a military funeral at some stage.
The only way forward, as I see it, is for the Egyptian authorities to check where the remains are and allow an independent DNA test to be carried out if they can be located.
If anyone has any thoughts or ideas, or connections with any Egyptian authorities, that could help facilitate this I would love to hear from them.
I look forward to reading any future posts about this matter and if anyone would like to discuss this further or in more detail then please feel free to email me – [email]robin.perrie@the-sun.co.uk[/email]
Apologies for the long post!
Regards
Robin
By: Robin Perrie - 29th October 2015 at 14:36
Thanks Lyffe, I’ll have a good read into that – looks like another fascinating human story
By: Lyffe - 29th October 2015 at 14:24
In many ways this thread is essentially a continuation of the earlier threads about Dennis Copping and his aircraft, with claims and counter-claims of what should have been done, who did it, what mistakes were made – none of which brings anyone closer to the truth.
If you are seeking a human story, Robin, you might like to read the thread about Sgt Mikolajczak, a Polish pilot who crash-landed and survived about a day in the Nubian Desert before succumbing to heat and thirst (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?19012-Sgt-Mikolajczak) . The similarities between the two stories are considerable, but that of Mikolajczak brings home the horror of the final moments of both men, something that is continually forgotten in the ‘academic’ arguments.
By: John Green - 29th October 2015 at 14:20
It appears to me, from my knowledge of working in the Near and Middle East, that obfuscation will be the order of the day. It is not necessarily intended to be wilful, in this particular case it appears to be a consequence of cultural differences between East and West.
The Egyptian authorities will not regard this matter as possessing any great moral, political all cultural imperative. The subject involves the remote death of a Westener and regrettable as it may be to Flight Sgt. Copping’s relatives it is of little significance to the Egyptians.
Few who are native to the Near and Middle East have any understanding of urgency; never do to-day what you can put off till next month. This philosophy is very much a part of life; always has been and possibly always will – such is my experience extending back to the early 1970s.
In the distant hope of yielding some result or closure, unlimited patience will be required, that, and the utmost tact and diplomacy.
By: Arabella-Cox - 29th October 2015 at 12:57
Having worked closely with Robin Perrie and John Nichol on this story, I’d add that a certain amount of ‘forensic’ detail might likely be determined from the cockpit of the P-40.
I think that even a layman would agree that the damage to the underside of the aircraft, and apparent distortion of the seat, makes it clear that the unfortunate pilot would most likely have suffered back, pelvic and possibly leg/ankle/feet injuries. As such, his ability to move far from the aircraft (if at all) would probably have been limited. Equally, there may (or may not) have been some significance in the cut seat harness, presence of flare pistol etc. In any event, if he had died in or by the aircraft, he might subsequently have been moved to another place by persons unknown.
So much of this remains conjecture, and ‘evidence’ was possibly lost or compromised by the apparent interference with the aircraft post-discovery and pre-recovery. Even then, there has to be some question mark over what was found or discovered in terms of the aircraft, its cockpit and the immediate environs of the site when it was salvaged. It has been said that a search was conducted, but we do not know any details of this; who by, the scientific nature of any such search or any formal findings. To the best of my knowledge this has never been publicly revealed.
I am aware that the specific issue of the aircraft has courted much controversy, and possibly more than any concern for the pilot on occasion. It is certainly not intended that the paragraph above should be interpreted as anything other than a statement of facts as they currently appear, and to merely highlight the fact that an open and transparent factual reporting of everything that was done and discovered during the aircraft recovery process would surely be another helpful piece of information for those who are intent on getting some final answers. Obfuscation, if that is what it is, from any quarter flies in the face of the spirit of what Robin Perrie and John Nichol now seek to achieve.
By: jack windsor - 29th October 2015 at 11:36
[QUOTE=snafu;2268387]Or, on the other hand, and like I’ve already said, our attache was unaware of a test and therefore would be unable to offer assistance.
He must have known about the remains from about the middle of 2012, so with the proximity of them 5km in that vast area must be akin to next door to the crashed P.40 I would have thought or even hoped that he would be pushing for some action. If the Egyptians were unable to oblige due to the political situation he could have organised a recovery, as the original discoverers were I believe oil workers, it obviously is not a case of a no go area, and also the aircraft has been removed. It does appear to us on the outside of things that our embassy/air attaché/MoD, have not been up to speed on this case, first found June 2012, DNA test? done on 23/2/13, its now the end of Oct 2015 Dennis and his family do deserve much better than this…
By: Bruce - 29th October 2015 at 11:05
Gotcha,
The whole thing is strange.
As I said before, the story behind the location of the bones, as far as we know it, makes no sense. In such a vast environment, stumbling across bones relating to this incident, at some distance from the wreck is unlikely in the extreme, unless they had other information.
I honestly don’t think we will ever know the full story.
Bruce
By: Zidante - 29th October 2015 at 09:38
Bruce, the point I’m trying to make, albeit badly, is that the letter from the Military Attache Branch states that they were unable to establish nationality by DNA testing. It would be utterly remarkable if they could! My point is that potentially you could establish that the bones were of ‘European ancestry’, but in the context of the Desert War and the 20th century, that wouldn’t get you much further but it is indeed in itself useful information in that it doesn’t mean the bones weren’t potentially Dennis Copping’s. But it appears that they didn’t even get that far. To state in the letter that they could not establish that the bones were ‘European’ would be appear to me to be a more accurate interpretation of any information passed to the Attache by a testing lab. Again, why would you not just copy their overall conclusion verbatim rather than try to interpret it? Maybe it’s just a very casually worded letter that was completed as an obligation to try to put the matter to rest? Obviously we aren’t going to find out what extraction methods and techniques/conditions they attempted, what markers they planned to look at, we won’t find out who attempted them either or whether any other lab was given the opportunity to try. All I have to go on is the wording of the letter and it appears strange to me.
By: Bruce - 29th October 2015 at 07:19
The wording of the letter from the Military Attache Liaison Branch is rather odd in terms of its scientific precision. One would normally assume that a statement from a reputable testing laboratory would be repeated verbatim anyway.
Unable to establish the nationality of the body through DNA typing of bones samples? When looking at a European Caucasian? What questions are they asking?
Well, one of the purposes of the testing would be to determine whether it was from a European Caucasian. No assumptions can be made.
By: snafu - 29th October 2015 at 00:00
Given the situation was/is as you describe it then surely our embassy would/could/should have taken the line of ” with the problems you are having and with it hopefully being a British subject may we take the responsibility for testing the remains”.
Or, on the other hand, and like I’ve already said, our attache was unaware of a test and therefore would be unable to offer assistance.
The wreckage was not found in a city but out in the deepest, darkest wilds, where there would be few admin offices, government ministries or forensic laboratories and certainly very few (read none) protests.
This being the case somebody went there, gathered the remains and took them somewhere to be tested, then Egyptian officials sent a official letter to our embassy giving the result. To my mind this somebody must be connected to the government, the lab is not known, the anthropologist Dr. Dina Shokry as head of Forensic Medicine at Cairo university you would think would have been involved, as I said more questions than believable answers.
I have no dispute with much of what you say, I was merely pointing out that, with the wreckage being not in the middle of a city in revolt but actually somewhere in the middle of a desert with not even flies for company, it wouldn’t be that difficult a job for a team to go out and retrieve the remains…
But this is pure speculation on my part anyway.
By: Robin Perrie - 28th October 2015 at 23:30
Thanks Tony
By: TonyT - 28th October 2015 at 22:16
Robin, regardless of the outcome, I do not read your newspaper, but thank you for your endeavours to get to the bottom of this, both for the family and for the truth, it it refreshing to see there is at least one journalist at your paper interested in uncovering the true story.
By: Zidante - 28th October 2015 at 20:55
The wording of the letter from the Military Attache Liaison Branch is rather odd in terms of its scientific precision. One would normally assume that a statement from a reputable testing laboratory would be repeated verbatim anyway.
Unable to establish the nationality of the body through DNA typing of bones samples? When looking at a European Caucasian? What questions are they asking?
By: Robin Perrie - 28th October 2015 at 17:15
Hi all, thanks again for the posts and the words of encouragement. Thanks to those who have posted info re the button – as someone noted, it is circumstantial but very interesting and potentially useful. Snafu and Jack Windsor – I think you both hit the nail on the head – the political situation in Egypt clearly hasn’t helped but the MoD obviously haven’t paid it the attention it deserves. No-one would suggest it should be one of their main priorities but a couple of follow up questions wouldn’t have take that much time and effort.
Regards
Robin
By: Flying_Pencil - 28th October 2015 at 15:25
Odd, informal font style for an official letter.
I agree with Junk Collector, a forensic Anthropologist would give authorities something to go on.
I don’t know if people from North Africa are as different from Europeans as say, Asians, but a report might be able to rule out whether the remains were from a European male or not.
Agree,
I have seen programs where much was learned just from the structure of bones themselves.
I with Robin best of luck in tracing location of bones and best ID as possible.
(and yes, I think this situation was comically handled too, by many parties)
(It may not be 2000+ year old pharos, but it is now history, should be treated as such)
By: jack windsor - 28th October 2015 at 13:31
Given the situation was/is as you describe it then surely our embassy would/could/should have taken the line of ” with the problems you are having and with it hopefully being a British subject may we take the responsibility for testing the remains”.
The wreckage was not found in a city but out in the deepest, darkest wilds, where there would be few admin offices, government ministries or forensic laboratories and certainly very few (read none) protests.
This being the case somebody went there, gathered the remains and took them somewhere to be tested, then Egyptian officials sent a official letter to our embassy giving the result. To my mind this somebody must be connected to the government, the lab is not known, the anthropologist Dr. Dina Shokry as head of Forensic Medicine at Cairo university you would think would have been involved, as I said more questions than believable answers.
By: snafu - 28th October 2015 at 11:38
Did the attache know that the test was taking place?
I don’t believe they have used the situation as an excuse – and I’m merely explaining that when things are happening in your country that could have life changing consequences then you do have a reason to not be as thorough as usual. The masses are protesting, the government is being toppled, the army are firing on civilians, people are dying, one religious faction are outlawing another religious faction, maybe the battle is at your door: is your attention really focused on examining a body that might have died some 70 years previously? It might explain Comic Sans rather than Times New Roman.
The wreckage was not found in a city but out in the deepest, darkest wilds, where there would be few admin offices, government ministries or forensic laboratories and certainly very few (read none) protests.
By: jack windsor - 28th October 2015 at 11:05
Nothing I can add re actual DNA testing, but surely if a test had been carried out – finding DNA or not – there might well be a result which appears the same with each test that would make it easy enough to declare that the test (DNA or whatever) was on bones (which obviously can survive in such conditions, even if DNA can’t) from the same body?
In addition it should be remembered that Egypt has not been particularly stable politically, recently. If some people there say or do things which may appear a little distracted there might well be multiple reasons that have nothing to do with this case.
If the bones were tested, then our Air Attache in Egypt should have taken professional advice weither he did we don’t know on the validity of the result, with the possibility of it being a British serviceman given the proximity to the P.40. Any doubt then a simple request for our own experts to do a test, but we seem to have accepted the one dubious test, and we don’t know the where about of the bones now, it is throwing up more questions than answers…
If the political situation is being used as a excuse for these failings, dare I ask why it didn’t stop the recovery of the aircraft ” to a safe location” where nothing else has been heard of it. Was there a update in the US but nothing here in the UK?
By: snafu - 27th October 2015 at 22:02
…All I would say is that it is indisputable (due to photographic and documentary evidence) that some bones were found, the Egyptians say they carried out DNA tests on those remains, they produced a simple and apparently flawed report of the test results and the MoD and FCO then accepted that report without question…
Nothing I can add re actual DNA testing, but surely if a test had been carried out – finding DNA or not – there might well be a result which appears the same with each test that would make it easy enough to declare that the test (DNA or whatever) was on bones (which obviously can survive in such conditions, even if DNA can’t) from the same body?
In addition it should be remembered that Egypt has not been particularly stable politically, recently. If some people there say or do things which may appear a little distracted there might well be multiple reasons that have nothing to do with this case.
By: Junk Collector - 27th October 2015 at 20:45
It would be normal procedure in the case of finding a skeleton for a Forensic Anthropologist to first study and produce a possible profile on the person, why do expensive DNA work if the skeleton was a female one.
Some things they could determine approximate age, sex, height, some medical problems may be evident, previous injuries, health problems related to regions through local diet, diseases, work related activities, analysis of teeth if present could determine where the person grew up, there is more.
Just chipping in again because my daughter is here with me and she has a degree in Anthropolgy, I would find it odd if there was not a detailed report on what was found, also don’t know how many or what bones were found but there may still be something that could maybe discount them. There is also the question of the recovery of the bones, was this done carefully looking for possible dating evidence nearby though a desert might be difficult.
It should be expected that an investigation technique would be simple to construct, follow and a professional team on hand to be sent to be involved as per US government has.
By: jeepman - 27th October 2015 at 20:13
Indian -made battledress would also have been supplied as replacement items to any and/or all British and Commonwealth units in-theatre through the supply chain. This forum discussion is also relevant – but also implies that the button on its own surely cannot be used to determine which armed service the clothing originates from.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/180748/thread/1239725338/RAF+Bush+jacket+question
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October 26, 2015 at 8:07 pm