The Politics of the Russia vs. Georgia Conflict

I would have paid a fortune for hearing what MS Rice told the Georgian president in private. I am sure, something like….”stop embarrasing the west”. I am sure of that. The good thing of this, as a possitive mind like mine, is that people learn from this. As as in all air crashes, additional meassures are to be taken to prevent it happen again.

I know all have learnt lessons. Only I wish we were more critical to our politicians. We pay them to solve problems, not to creat them.. If they are not able to…..we should take action.

Unfortunately it has left devastation and death. Haven´t we learnt anything from nacionalism and war in former Yugoslavia?. We know it over here. We have always strong language flying over in Spain about it.

I could’nt agree more with your post keltic. On Wednesday on the Al-Jazeera network they broadcast a mini history of the conflict. According to their expert when the break up of the USSR occured, all of the autonomous regions within what were then Soviet republics were entitled to referenda under the law to determine their status in the coming “new order”, according to him the Abkhazians and South Ossetians were denied this right by the newly “independent” regime in Tblisi, whose method of cesation from the USSR was itself of dubious legality. As the North Ossetians were situated outside Georgia their vote took place and the population voted to remain within the Russian Federation. Small wonder then that these two regions should be so bitter, so much for your democratic friends Pres. Bush. And if any present day regime belongs in the Cold War then its certainly the one in Washington….but then again if it had been then none of us would be here today.

oppps, I had forgotten the summary. I know it has been too long. Nothing to do with a Cold War, these inflamatory language is simply for internal consumption in both sides.

Both know there´s a War on Terror going on………Alqaida may be very pleased of this. The people shouldn´t forget it.

I don´t usually participate in politics, but I want to give my oppinion too. I hope nobody misunderstands it. In general terms, I wonder why Kosovo can be independent just because most people there want it, and the Ossetians and Abjazians can´t. If Scotland calls for independence will the UK allow it?. Or even us with the basque people?. I wonder why someone so extreme as the Georgian president should be supported,only because he has been elected by the people. Democracies can´t make ilegitimete things. I wonder why someone could be so irresponsible.

If a mouse lives next to a bear…..the clever thing is not to bite the bear toes. And I wonder why the west has supported a guy who has only has had hard talk with the russians, and started two military adventures in two areas which are not clear should be part of Georgia.

Russians have probably used disproportional force, but as many others in other conflicts. I feel that we stay in the surface. And the main problem is the weakness of Europe of not having a strong and independent defense policy (with or without the UK), which could tell US administrations like the current one……….NO, we don´t support your involvement in our backyard. We don´t need inflamatory tone, no cold war, no Missile Shield….

The strategy is clear. Russians and the EU relations is a priority for Brussels and there have never been that good, even now. Europe needs Russia, Russia needs Europe in economic, political, and so on terms. Russia need selling petrol in Europe, needs Europe in technology terms, and needs us as a ballance and mediator with the US. Russian is part of Europe (at least in many ares of the territory), we have shared a common history (good an bad), so I wouldn´t even rule Russia having closer links with Europe (within or not the EU).

So America feels envious and will make their very best to split this marriage. First creating a split about the Shield, then with this events, and usually using the UK, Poland and other states to create troubles within the NATO. It´s my prespective. Georgia is not important, is simple a huge diplomatic game of influence and power. Nobody is going to give a damm for Georgian president, who I expect to be kicked in the next elections.

I hope, we should be more active in that. I do think the US are friends, allies, but not more than the Russians which have been perpetually cornered after the end of the cold war. Why don´t we try to understand them?. Sorry Americans, I think you should kick this administration as soon as possible and have a more constructive approach to the Russian-European reality. No america bashing at all, but of course in this case public oppinion and media should be more critical with this administration.

I hope I hadn´t offended anyone.

Believe me, there are folks here who wish that our leaders here in the US would return to the Monroe Doctrine and leave all of the little countries to do their thing.

Indeed. For the last few years, opinion polls have found that about 40% to 45% of the US population favors a foreign policy of “staying home and minding our own business.” In private conversations, one often hears statements like this by science fiction writer Jerry Pournelle (via Instapundit):

I continue to thank God that Georgia is not yet yet a part of NATO. NATO is an entangling alliance of the sort that George Washington warned us against, and guarantees our involvement in the territorial disputes of Europe. We have no national interest in the independence of Georgia or any portion of it, and we should have no permanent alliances in Europe to begin with. We have as many good reasons to become friends with the new Russian Republic ( Empire if you like) as we do with most of the continental nations; and none of them need an American alliance. If the balance of power in Europe is out of balance, it is due to the new European nation being built there; and that certainly doesn’t need US blood and treasure to defend it.

But such comments are usually followed by a remark of resignation that such will never happen.

this might be a bit of a stretch… but i think georgia was used… the US egged georgia on to make this brazen move… the US never, i don’t think, realistically expected that they would be able to have a foothold that close to russia, especially not in the caucusus region… the trade off, georgia for closer eastern european relations with the US and the world remembering the threat of russian imperialism, would be definitely worth it for the neocons i think… plus, they might just get that second cold war that they’ve wanted so badly… fills the gaps for places that the war on terror couldn’t take them with a nice defined enemy…

Right now it seems to me that Georgia has acted in a foolish way, apparently having assumed a number of things. But just how “clean” are the hands of the Russians?

I realise that it may take some time to sort out the line of events and their causes in an objective manner with regards to this conflict. Let’s be clear: I know far too little at this time to assign final responsibility.

I’d like to ask some questions, though, and I’ll appreciate it if someone can answer them with as much fact and as little speculation as possible:

1. What happened before August 8? I’ve read an unconfirmed report claiming that South Ossetian separatists might have done something to provoke a military response from Georgia.

2. The Russians say they intervened in order to protect “Russian citizens.” With the passport issue as well as international law in mind, are the Russians right or wrong?

The events leading to the conflict are far from clearcut. There was a massive Russian troop buildup immediately to the north of Georgia, as well as a series of escalating events. All of the Russian ground forces were already in place for an invasion, so it is less a matter of who precisely initiated the hostilities as to who had the overwhelming force present.

The Russian use, or misuse, of air power is more puzzling. There isn’t any sign of effective close air support, or even battlefield interdiction on the part of the Russian. Air superiority wasn’t even a priority. Basically, the Russians were hitting fixed infrastructure targets, civilian targets included, deep in Georgia from day one. There is even some question in press reports over when the first Russian sorties occurred, before or after the Georgians were on the move.

Maybe the picture will be clearer in the coming weeks, but nothing is certain at the moment.

The ambiguity of the current crisis is one of the most troubling aspects. There are very few Western journalists on the ground in Georgia, and apparently no substantial reporting from non-State affiliated Russian journalists, which is understandable since all broadcast outlets are State controlled. If Russian forces allowed full Western media access, and made the Russian press entirely independent of the state, there would be far more clarity and less potential controversy. Freedom of information is valuable to all sides.

Right now it seems to me that Georgia has acted in a foolish way, apparently having assumed a number of things. But just how “clean” are the hands of the Russians?

I realise that it may take some time to sort out the line of events and their causes in an objective manner with regards to this conflict. Let’s be clear: I know far too little at this time to assign final responsibility.

I’d like to ask some questions, though, and I’ll appreciate it if someone can answer them with as much fact and as little speculation as possible:

1. What happened before August 8? I’ve read an unconfirmed report claiming that South Ossetian separatists might have done something to provoke a military response from Georgia.

2. The Russians say they intervened in order to protect “Russian citizens.” With the passport issue as well as international law in mind, are the Russians right or wrong?

Here the news: http://samsonblinded.org/news/government-israeli-arms-sales-to-georgia-may-irritate-russia-2647 *Israelis supply weapons to Georgia!

Anyway, I’m sure anyone would want this conflict to be over rapidly. The normal people going about their daily business are always the losers here. I hope for their and their families sake everything is now at an end…..

I won’t attempt to get into the politics of this situation, quite frankly I haven’t a clue who’s right or who’s wrong, my only comment is that the Russians wanted to wipe out the Muslims in Chechnia, but seem to want to protect them here?

Where on earth did you get that idea? That is an astonishing statement Pete…

If Russia had wanted that it would have been over long before it was.:(

Just as an aside, we’ve just watched the Olympic beach volleyball match between Georgia and Russia, not surprisingly shown live on BBC1.
Yes, a game watched for really all the wrong reasons, apart from the politics, who can resist watching those bikini clad, sun tanned lovelies, the Russians don’t supply rivet spitters from Murmansk anymore.
What a surprise, the stadium was packed to it’s 12000 capacity, guess who won, Georgia of course, they were driven to it by national pride and a biased Chinese crowd, they couldn’t lose under the circumstances.
Interesting to see how reticent the Russian athletes were at shaking the hands of their victors afterwards, were they under instruction I wonder, sad unsporting ******s if they were.

Those Georgian players were natives of Brazil, although they had been granted Georgian citizenship. Maybe that explains the lack of bloodshed on the sand.

Well i have good excuse with English being my 2nd or even 3rd Language… though he does speak some Spanish.. is it possible he was Mexican alien all along :eek::eek: 😀

Your ignorance is just astonishing. Then again considering that you people elected as leader person with total IQ of dead ameba.. maybe i should not be as shocked.

Don’t be too hard on him, you seem to have the same command of the English language!:diablo:

You seam to have lost the plot mate… it was Not Russia that used Olympics as cover… it was Georgia.

Sakashvili ordered his toops into Osetia gambling that he could produce quick victory and with world distracted by Olympics and belief that NATO will give him more of a backing, that Russia wont get involved.

His gamble turned out snake ayes unfortunately for him…

Just as an aside, we’ve just watched the Olympic beach volleyball match between Georgia and Russia, not surprisingly shown live on BBC1.
Yes, a game watched for really all the wrong reasons, apart from the politics, who can resist watching those bikini clad, sun tanned lovelies, the Russians don’t supply rivet spitters from Murmansk anymore.
What a surprise, the stadium was packed to it’s 12000 capacity, guess who won, Georgia of course, they were driven to it by national pride and a biased Chinese crowd, they couldn’t lose under the circumstances.
Interesting to see how reticent the Russian athletes were at shaking the hands of their victors afterwards, were they under instruction I wonder, sad unsporting ******s if they were.

I won’t attempt to get into the politics of this situation, quite frankly I haven’t a clue who’s right or who’s wrong, my only comment is that the Russians wanted to wipe out the Muslims in Chechnia, but seem to want to protect them here?
The point is that they obviously used the Olympic Games as a cover, no coincidence is it that the invasion started on the day of the opening ceremony, it can’t have done the ‘brotherhood of sport’ alot of good, there must be tensions within the Olympic village, I’m sure that the Chinese are seething about all this, rightly or wrongly, they’ve had to put up with a lot of grief over these games, yes, we all know about Chinese politics, but from what I have seen so far, and I love the Olympics, it hasn’t become a political tool and I didn’t expect it would be.
Remember the Suez Crisis in 1956, the Russians used it as a cover to invade Hungary, similarly during all the student protests and all the rest of it in 1968 they chose to destroy democracy in Czeckoslovakia.
Whether it was under the Czar or Lenin, Russia, has somehow exhibited itself as a frustrated nation, why, I don’t know. They should sit back, consider themselves as a world power, which they truly are, and forget stupid, political power assesments, which this is all about, and get on with peacefully using their influence on the worlds stage.

I wonder where Russia will stop? Will Ukraine annoy Mr Putin enough to send in the tanks now that he see’s he can get away with it?

If pro West part of Ukraine starts shelling pro Russian part… and treating them as second class citizens… maybe…

Ill remind you that goverment in Ukraine is split along national/religios lines about 45-55% … with 45% population more less considering them self Russian, and 55% not , or even closer to Polish. There is also Catholic/Ortodox split. So the rethoric coming out of Ukraine is hardly representative of 100% of population.

Is it fair of NATO to fast track Ukraine into membership, on a whim of Minority government when 45% of its own population is against it ??

I wonder where Russia will stop? Will Ukraine annoy Mr Putin enough to send in the tanks now that he see’s he can get away with it?

I was joking a bit, but i do actually agree… i have been coming on these forums on and off since shortly after Allied Force when i moved from Serbia to Ukraine to studdy for a year, i then moved to Australia to finish studdies off and have stayed here… i like the place :p.

Having been unfortunate enough to have my service conicide with Allied Force, needless to say when i first started reading these forums i was pretty much as biased as you can imagine.. but sometimes perspective from different position helps you adjust your position.

Which is why i return to these forums every now and again, not only to catch up with state in world aviation, but global opinion poll too.. For example with the most reacent crysis, instead of digging up all the news sources my self, i come here because i know there people here from all over the world who will be happy to copy paste news from sources in their region in one place… makes it easier on lazy bum like me :D:D:D