The potential for joint Russian-Chinese collaboration

there are so many things. just look around.

AHL is teaching China about making this kind of helicopter. it is not some 50-50 project. when ever Chinese learn to make it. its prototype will fly. but if they not learn. than it will not fly.

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what are some other things Russia could teach China? 🙁

I wonder why is heavy helicopter project going so slowly, cooperation on a concrete project was announced a decade ago. and yet one can read that actual airframes in service aren’t expected for another decade.

it’s not like it’s a super high tech, advanced design. at least Russian side should have some experience and knowledge, at least to lean on the mi-46 research.

only reason I can think of is that no side actually needs such a helicopter urgently. so the money invested is probably slim.

AHL is teaching China about making this kind of helicopter. it is not some 50-50 project. when ever Chinese learn to make it. its prototype will fly. but if they not learn. than it will not fly.

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2019/04/15/russia-flexes-its-heavy-lift-helo-muscles-with-new-mi-26-test-flights/ [LEFT][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=18px]“Rostec is keeping pace with the times,” Kladov said, “and we are ready to offer the localization of technologies that our customers need … and are ready to consider a wide range of conditions and cooperation options.” Rostec has signed seven such agreements with Chinese state corporations, Kladov added. The AHL project is just one of them. One way to think of AHL is “Mi-26 lite,” a version deeply optimized for Chinese requirements: The takeoff weight will be 38.7 tons, with a payload capacity of 15 ton, a flight range of 800 kilometers and a max speed of 300 kph.One requirement that was especially important for the Chinese, Kladov said, is the ability to fly up tall mountains, like those found in Tibet. Russian Helicopters will continue to produce, sell and upgrade the Mi-26 to the Russian military and foreign customers.

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I wonder why is heavy helicopter project going so slowly, cooperation on a concrete project was announced a decade ago. and yet one can read that actual airframes in service aren’t expected for another decade.

They haven’t agreed on the final specs yet. The Russians would like to build a heavier helicopter, roughly similar to Mi-26. That would allow them to use the PD-12V turboshaft engines that they are making. The Chinese favor a smaller design with less lifting performance. The PD-12V is overkill in such a design and so that means using D-136 (Ukrainian) or a Western engine. Either of those approaches complicates things.

The heavy lift helicopter is definitely an area for cooperation, but it ain’t going to move as fast as CR929.

This makes no sense, as Russia has no issue making hulls and is in fact having engine shortages across the board right now.

You are right on the Engine, as China are also struggling with its Engine.
But i was talking about a future prospect, as Russia will at some point get those engines up n running.

As for Hull, well Russia are adept at building smaller Frigate and Corvettes class Hull in modern designs layout, but they have not floated any new Destroyer Hull at the size of Type 55 Destroyer in Ages, and the likelyhood of this happen anytime soon is slim to none.
So i stand firm at the Type 55 being a good buy for Russia. They could re-arrange their weapon compartments as they like with the Russian class weapons

I wonder why is heavy helicopter project going so slowly, cooperation on a concrete project was announced a decade ago. and yet one can read that actual airframes in service aren’t expected for another decade.

it’s not like it’s a super high tech, advanced design. at least Russian side should have some experience and knowledge, at least to lean on the mi-46 research.

only reason I can think of is that no side actually needs such a helicopter urgently. so the money invested is probably slim.

And so we agree, making any realistic chances of a true Sino-Russian cooperation quite slim!

IMO it is limited to the AHLH (heavy-lift helicopter), eventually a new heavy-lift transport, a VSTOL fighter …

In aviation yes, in naval matters that’s another thing entirely. China would like access to Russian submarine technology. It would happily build them any surface ship for Yasen subs.

Russian has the experience, China has the funding, I personally would like to see China take on Russian canceled projects

Also my proposals so far either were simply deliberately ignored or just turned down as a joke.

Dont you think your proposals are not joke?. They cannot certify 4600 km range aircraft on time and you are comparing there products with 10k to 20k range category
that’s why no one take you seriously and I keep repeating the same in every reply.

https://simpleflying.com/comac-c919-2021-target/#comments
[B]Comac C919’s Certification Not Likely Until 2021

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So let’s try again:
– Il-96M: as a tanker IMO too late since the PLAAF will introduce a Y-20 based design. However as Trident mentioned, it would have been a great option years ago

Trident does not know anything aviation. especially regarding IL-96M project.. look at his history about IL-476 vs An-70 discussion.
the word long range has different meaning than long range you used in common definition.

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/page/146
Vladimir Putin: These are the things that need to be done methodically and as planned; I understand that for 2019–2020 there are going to be issues that need to be balanced, but you have to choose your priorities, and this is one of them. We have to build our own regional aircraft, otherwise we will always have to buy foreign aircraft in this segment. And we need a powerful engine, we need the PD-35, as you know full well. There are many aviation projects and ideas related to this engine.
Denis Manturov: It will be used both for a wide-bodied long-range aircraft and a heavy transport aircraft

I mean you can always increase thrust with PS90A1 or more efficiency with PD-14 but Playing around with Y-8/Y-9 is worthless for special mission aircraft. slow noisy and lower altitude cruising speed.

https://www.tupolev.ru/en/planes/tu-204/
[LEFT][COLOR=#818181][FONT=Roboto][SIZE=15px]Tu-204-100Ñ new generation cargo aircraft, which is based on Tu-204-100 modern passenger aircraft, is equipped with advanced PS-90A fuel-saving engines and designed to transport cargos up to 30 tons in International class containers for up to 3 900 km air paths or cargos of 15 tons for a distance up to 7 200 km.

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… Having said that, there are niche products where what you say may apply, but as of today I couldn’t easily name a single example of such approach in RU-CN cooperation.

And so we agree, making any realistic chances of a true Sino-Russian cooperation quite slim!

IMO it is limited to the AHLH (heavy-lift helicopter), eventually a new heavy-lift transport, a VSTOL fighter …

Russia should look at the Type 55 Destroyers from China, and try to field them with thieir own set of Engines.
In time, China could buy Russian Maritime Engine for their fleet.

This makes no sense, as Russia has no issue making hulls and is in fact having engine shortages across the board right now.

Simply for the same reason, other cooperation projects were initiated, executed and successfully completed: to share resources, since ghe burden to carry on alone is much harder – and IMO this is the reason, why at least one if not both great European projects will fail – and eventually since it strengthens a political alliance.

That’s why it is called cooperation.

I think that comparing the European projects with anything countries with real geopolitical burdens are doing is not the best approach. In Europe there is no need for self-defence and accordingly no real political will to develop military technology, in China and Russia is a matter or survival of the nation. Also their developmental costs are very much lower than in Western countries where the MIC’s goal is to produce value for their shareholders, contrary to state-owned industry in Russia or China. So the focus is placed on getting the technologies that allow them afterwards to defend themselves and they try to offset them by accessing export markets without restrictions (full IP rights). Cooperation is no big help in terms of procurement, which is the lion’s share of military expense in new HW. Having said that, there are niche products where what you say may apply, but as of today I couldn’t easily name a single example of such approach in RU-CN cooperation.

It would be beneficial for the Russian side to be able to purchase Chinese components or even complete designs in some areas (especially in light of relations with sanctions), in fact they already have.

They bought Chinese engines for Pr. 21980 assault boats, project 22460 coast guard patrol boats, as well as Pr. 21631 missile corvettes.

One small problem is they managed to break down in every single one of those ship types.

Russia should look at the Type 55 Destroyers from China, and try to field them with thieir own set of Engines.
In time, China could buy Russian Maritime Engine for their fleet.

Good point on the STOVL fighter actually.
That is the one area regarding fighter jets where I think a collaborative venture might be beneficial to both sides…especially on the actual vehicle.
By its nature, the production runs would be small, so economy of scale with joint production would help.
Each country could then outfit it with their own avionics.

There has been announcements in Russia that a STOVL aircraft is being looked at, if I recall correctly.

they’re gonna bring BACK THE YACK!

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Good point on the STOVL fighter actually.
That is the one area regarding fighter jets where I think a collaborative venture might be beneficial to both sides…especially on the actual vehicle.
By its nature, the production runs would be small, so economy of scale with joint production would help.
Each country could then outfit it with their own avionics.

There has been announcements in Russia that a STOVL aircraft is being looked at, if I recall correctly.

This is the problem. You’ve entered a discussion with an agenda, or a chip on your shoulder. To defend your favorite country or aircraft, thats why you’ve became sensitive to any kind of discussion relating to it, whether positive or negative.

I know everyone here has a bias towards something, but that’s not the right direction to go in a discussion. You look like you’re trying to pick fights in the Indian section, Russian section, etc by inviting some kind of comment on China.

The pro-russians here, even if they have some bias, have shown willingness to entertain the idea of cooperation with China.

Hmm … but where do I defend my favourite country (esp. since it is NOT MY country)? In no way I proposed the Russians to buy the J-20, nor to co-develop the FC-31!? I only question – based on my limited knowledge – the proposals made by others often enough with a reasonable explanation. If some don’t like this or think this is a biased defence of my favourite country or against Russia, then it is not my problem, but at least it should be a basis for a decent discussion. This however is barely possible if most proposals are based on this attitude I mentioned. If others share this not, then let us debate, but statements from certain members like “Russia has to lead since only Russia knows and has … ” are IMO a bit narrow-minded. Also my proposals so far either were simply deliberately ignored or just turned down as a joke.

So let’s try again:

– Il-96M: as a tanker IMO too late since the PLAAF will introduce a Y-20 based design. However as [USER=”4563″]Trident[/USER] mentioned, it would have been a great option years ago.
– Tu-204: again the same issues … China has now well established its Y-8/-9 family and I’m not sure if a Tu-204 based design would be preferred against a C919 based one. IMO the PLAAF will prefer an indigenous solution.
– carrier: again; why should China invest in yet another STOBAR carrier with ski ramp when it already has a CATOBAR carrier under construction. Here I would see the option for Russia to use this more modern design as a basis and add nuclear reactors. a win-win for both.
– LHD: The same with the Type 075 LHD
– co-development of a new STOVL carrier borne fighter
– rockets for space transportation, and space exploration

Deino

It would be beneficial for the Russian side to be able to purchase Chinese components or even complete designs in some areas (especially in light of relations with sanctions), in fact they already have.

They bought Chinese engines for Pr. 21980 assault boats, project 22460 coast guard patrol boats, as well as Pr. 21631 missile corvettes.

One small problem is they managed to break down in every single one of those ship types.

Thailand had similar engine problems and fire control problems for the ships they imported too.

hence China probably still has more to learn from Russia on hull and engine design for ships.

but China’s ship yards have more production capacity. so a collaboration there is good.

I only question this point of view as if there is some sort of nature law “Russians are always ahead, they can never learn from Chinese!”

This is the problem. You’ve entered a discussion with an agenda, or a chip on your shoulder. To defend your favorite country or aircraft, thats why you’ve became sensitive to any kind of discussion relating to it, whether positive or negative.

I know everyone here has a bias towards something, but that’s not the right direction to go in a discussion. You look like you’re trying to pick fights in the Indian section, Russian section, etc by inviting some kind of comment on China.

The pro-russians here, even if they have some bias, have shown willingness to entertain the idea of cooperation with China.

It would be beneficial for the Russian side to be able to purchase Chinese components or even complete designs in some areas (especially in light of relations with sanctions), in fact they already have.

They bought Chinese engines for Pr. 21980 assault boats, project 22460 coast guard patrol boats, as well as Pr. 21631 missile corvettes.

One small problem is they managed to break down in every single one of those ship types.

I doubt if The Chinese have much to learn from any country in these categories, except perhaps with hypersonic missiles. In fact, it seems as if Chinese Navy ships have more advanced AESA radars fitted than can be found on Russian Navy vessels?

There is Air-Sea-Space battle concept. just look at Tu-160M2. 24 hour flights will become normal.

https://www.airrecognition.com/index.php/archive-world-worldwide-news-air-force-aviation-aerospace-air-military-defence-industry/global-defense-security-news/2019-news-aerospace-industry-air-force/january/4808-russia-to-increase-its-tu-160m2-fleet-and-to-upgrade-its-tu-160m.html
[COLOR=#616161][FONT=ABeeZee][SIZE=14px]The aircraft will have NK-32 engines of the second series to increase the range and flight duration,” Shoigu said.

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Ships are limted by slow speed, limited radar horizon and a lot more manpower needed with limited strike potential.