The RAF should be ashamed……..

We won’t have enough Nimrod MRA4s to use them as bombers. They’ll be rare & precious things, far too valuable for their main purpose to put them in harms way dropping bombs if we can avoid it. They’re also easy targets for any kind of air defences, so only usable for launching stand-off weapons where that can be done from a safe distance (& very many targets would need getting into the danger zone even to launch Storm Shadow), or in a permissive environment.

They don’t give global reach without a network of bases, overflight permissions, & tankers, & deployments are hard to hide, unlike SSNs.

The advantage a penetrating strike aircraft offers over SSNs is the ability to launch repeated attacks, & attack multiple relatively low value targets, which SSNs with a small number of expensive TLAMs can’t do. I see this as an argument for something like a long-range stealthy UCAV carrying PGMs in addition to SSNs. I don’t see much of a role for a very high value, non-penetrating strike aircraft.

Doc,

There is merit in what you say – of course there is – and in the utopian ideal something like that would probably happen. In reality though gunfights happen over who has what capability.

Take your Vulcan/UK global reach platform. What requirement would this fulfill?. Coercion force, as were not likely to get enough or be able to one-time deploy enough for saturation, precision capable and with an ability to penetrate defended airspace. RAF will say F/A-22 or a UCAV development of Taranis perhaps and point to the old FOAS requirement. RN will say ‘already got it, its TLAM Blk 4’ and ‘instead of inducting a new aircraft type with massive whole-life costs into the airforce, give us two more Astutes and a couple dozen more TLAM in the stockpile’. Then they’ll go on to show how useful the extra 2 SSN’s would be for high persistence intel gathering, chokepoint monitoring etc, etc.

The issue is that whoever is the arbiter of this kind of utopian defence requirement study would face an impossible challenge trying to referee all the viewpoints and competing proposals. Ultimately you’d simply have the same situation that exists today but without the funds spent on the review!.

As Scooter says some degree of competition and rivalry is good here as it fosters the service identity which can be vital. Where it goes wrong is when it turns into one service trying to get anothers projects cancelled in favour of their own without regard to the greater force mix. If we can stop THAT the thing will work just about as well as anyone elses.

Your certainly right Jonesy the navy does have it in respect of Tomahawk when it comes to global reach. On the other hand it takes time to get a sub on station if something blows up quick. The capability to conduct a quick global strike from the air would certainly be something of use to the UK. The thing is we don’t need to spend money buying a new platform as The Doc suggested, the RAF already has a platform coming into service (at great cost) that could do the job with only minor investment required. What I’m talking about is Nimrod MRA4 which could easily carry Pavewave 4 and Storm Shadow, the aircraft has a 1760 databus so we are talking about software integration.

Of course the RN would regard this as a threat to their spending and the RAF would regard it as an opportunity to pull a fast one on the RN with neither service seeming to realise that this could actually be a handy capability to have in our force mix. Just think if we had to send out a task force we could use Nimrod with Storm Shadow to operate well ahead of the fleet making sure that any enemy couldn’t dig in the kind of equipment that could be dangerous to the fleet followed up by our TLAM equipped Submarine when they get on station.

Doc,

100% agreement. Maybe time for a change. The 3 services aught to get together, & work out a united policy for defensive & offensive operations. Black buck type operations are still needed with several aircraft involved not a single aircraft, therefore several Vulcan / replacement squadrons should be in service.(US B52 bombings in Afghanistan) Local air superiority a must for ground operations, whither a commando raid or full armoured division deployment therefore a forward flexible airstrip equals aircraft carrier.

There is merit in what you say – of course there is – and in the utopian ideal something like that would probably happen. In reality though gunfights happen over who has what capability.

Take your Vulcan/UK global reach platform. What requirement would this fulfill?. Coercion force, as were not likely to get enough or be able to one-time deploy enough for saturation, precision capable and with an ability to penetrate defended airspace. RAF will say F/A-22 or a UCAV development of Taranis perhaps and point to the old FOAS requirement. RN will say ‘already got it, its TLAM Blk 4’ and ‘instead of inducting a new aircraft type with massive whole-life costs into the airforce, give us two more Astutes and a couple dozen more TLAM in the stockpile’. Then they’ll go on to show how useful the extra 2 SSN’s would be for high persistence intel gathering, chokepoint monitoring etc, etc.

The issue is that whoever is the arbiter of this kind of utopian defence requirement study would face an impossible challenge trying to referee all the viewpoints and competing proposals. Ultimately you’d simply have the same situation that exists today but without the funds spent on the review!.

As Scooter says some degree of competition and rivalry is good here as it fosters the service identity which can be vital. Where it goes wrong is when it turns into one service trying to get anothers projects cancelled in favour of their own without regard to the greater force mix. If we can stop THAT the thing will work just about as well as anyone elses.

RAF on RN Ships

Well, I have no problem with a little in-service rivialry. As a matter of fact the competition can be beneficial to all Services. (within reason) Yet, I personally think the RAF Leadership has gone over the edge again! As I see no place for RAF Aircraft on RN Ships. Really, in my humble opinion. Its the fault of the UK Government for letting it even become a issue………:(:(:(

[QUOTE=Fedaykin;1368933]Playful inter service rivalry is one thing but the petty behaviour of all three services is another thing.

I personally think all three major services are guilty of petty attacks against the other services without realising the real enemy is the treasury (I don’t include the marines here as far as I can see they usually are the victim of this inter service battle).

100% agreement. Maybe time for a change. The 3 services aught to get together, & work out a united policy for defensive & offensive operations. Black buck type operations are still needed with several aircraft involved not a single aircraft, therefore several Vulcan / replacement squadrons should be in service.(US B52 bombings in Afghanistan)
Local air superiority a must for ground operations, whither a commando raid or full armoured division deployment therefore a forward flexible airstrip equals aircraft carrier. Enoch Powell stated in 1943 “no British presence required in Europe (mainland) after defeat of Germany” this has been the biggest waste of precious defense money post’45.

How tragic it is that you are embarrassed!.

Service rivalry is very, very much more subtle than your fervent flag waving paints it. Until you have worn the uniform – whatever its colour and shade – you’d be advised to try and understand the service ethos before making such sweeping commentry.

Part of the problem the RN has with the RAF is exactly that they were NOT there to help us when they said they would and we lost men and ships because of it. Further than that they went to the extreme ends to dredge up a few old bombers with bits, literally, off a scrapheap – staged a few ad-hoc long-range sorties and then made out their attacks bottled up the cream of the enemy air force back defending their capital!. As if we should, in fact, be grateful for their august presence. To a lot of us that does not sit well.

Now many of us, who have served, have friends in the other branches and we know that the institutional rivalry between the services has a time and place, but, it is very, very real. To some, though definitely not all, it is part of the sense of identity and pride we feel about ‘our’ service and is indivisable. To be informed, in such flippant fashion, that we should all ‘just bally get on with it’, if you will forgive the paraphrasing, also does not sit well.

Playful inter service rivalry is one thing but the petty behaviour of all three services is another thing.

In respect of Black Buck I agree that it probably didn’t have the impact the RAF would have us think (albeit they DID hit the runway … I have spoken to RN types who think otherwise despite the impact survey done after the war) but I take the line that Sandy Woodward took on the matter, if you have the capability use it! I also can’t let go Sharky Wards utterly childish behaviour when he came back the UK then accused ALL the RAF personel of Jealousy and snubbing him on the VC10 home because they hadn’t gone to fight like him thus not giving him and his wife proper respect. I would think that the RAF personel in the VC10 squadron or on the base had little time to be jealous considering they probably were rushed off their feet resupplying the task force via the airbridge….Sorry I digress!

I personally think all three major services are guilty of petty attacks against the other services without realising the real enemy is the treasury (I don’t include the marines here as far as I can see they usually are the victim of this inter service battle).

Whilst this video is good it is yet another petty shot in the RN/RAF battle for funding!

I looked at it by going off the latest ding-dongs the RN & RAF have had in recent weeks/months, NOT the past, which to me, a civvy, looks like childish and silly squabbling, hence of what I said before.

Fair one. Understandable in that context but understand that the squabbling can have very serious connotations and is based on a lot of history.

And, nothing wrong with flag waving if you’re proud of your countrys Armed forces. Like I am….

Again fair one.

How tragic it is that you are embarrassed!.

Service rivalry is very, very much more subtle than your fervent flag waving paints it. Until you have worn the uniform – whatever its colour and shade – you’d be advised to try and understand the service ethos before making such sweeping commentry.

Part of the problem the RN has with the RAF is exactly that they were NOT there to help us when they said they would and we lost men and ships because of it. Further than that they went to the extreme ends to dredge up a few old bombers with bits, literally, off a scrapheap – staged a few ad-hoc long-range sorties and then made out their attacks bottled up the cream of the enemy air force back defending their capital!. As if we should, in fact, be grateful for their august presence. To a lot of us that does not sit well.

Now many of us, who have served, have friends in the other branches and we know that the institutional rivalry between the services has a time and place, but, it is very, very real. To some, though definitely not all, it is part of the sense of identity and pride we feel about ‘our’ service and is indivisable. To be informed, in such flippant fashion, that we should all ‘just bally get on with it’, if you will forgive the paraphrasing, also does not sit well.

Maybe “Embarrassed” was the wrong thing to say I guess now, maybe I looked at the wrong way, and maybe thats because I get such information about what goes on from the media, forums etc and not from the likes that’ve served in the Armed Forces themselves. As you and pretty much everyone knows the media have a habit of twisting such things, hence probably why I said such things, should’ve thought a little bit more and I’m sorry if I offended. I looked at it by going off the latest ding-dongs the RN & RAF have had in recent weeks/months, NOT the past, which to me, a civvy, looks like childish and silly squabbling, hence of what I said before.

And, nothing wrong with flag waving if you’re proud of your countrys Armed forces. Like I am….

We are all equal, its just some are more equal than others.
top 3 air forces in the world: 1/ FAA. 2/ Israel 3/ raf.
Best taxi service in the world only 1 that counts any how, always there when need RN.
Percy is 2nd best at what he does as well, not boasting but every one knows who the number 1 is in that dept. though modesty stops me from saying.
Sod PC the real enemy is the gay,left wing liberal anti British establishment which has bitterly divided our armed forces & ruined our country. But thats life!

Great Video!!! Thank you very much!!!

But, It’s bloody annoying how the RAF & RN are taking pathetic pot shots at each other…Its kinda embarrasing. They really, REALLY have to realise, and the British army too, that they are always going to need each other everytime, no matter what. I’m sure they do realise, but don’t want to admit it, saying that, if any one was in the sh*t, I’m 110% sure the other two services would be there to get’em out of it!

How tragic it is that you are embarrassed!.

Service rivalry is very, very much more subtle than your fervent flag waving paints it. Until you have worn the uniform – whatever its colour and shade – you’d be advised to try and understand the service ethos before making such sweeping commentry.

Part of the problem the RN has with the RAF is exactly that they were NOT there to help us when they said they would and we lost men and ships because of it. Further than that they went to the extreme ends to dredge up a few old bombers with bits, literally, off a scrapheap – staged a few ad-hoc long-range sorties and then made out their attacks bottled up the cream of the enemy air force back defending their capital!. As if we should, in fact, be grateful for their august presence. To a lot of us that does not sit well.

Now many of us, who have served, have friends in the other branches and we know that the institutional rivalry between the services has a time and place, but, it is very, very real. To some, though definitely not all, it is part of the sense of identity and pride we feel about ‘our’ service and is indivisable. To be informed, in such flippant fashion, that we should all ‘just bally get on with it’, if you will forgive the paraphrasing, also does not sit well.

The Navy have launched a “Fly Navy 100” celebration, I have attached the video link:

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/ConMediaFile.45950/changeNav/6568

Clearly a reply to the RAF’s “One Nation One Airforce” campaign, also I suspect a calculated exercise at pissing off the RAF considering they are celebrating their 90th aniversary.

Wish both services would just grow up sometimes…

Great Video!!! Thank you very much!!!

But, It’s bloody annoying how the RAF & RN are taking pathetic pot shots at each other…Its kinda embarrasing. They really, REALLY have to realise, and the British army too, that they are always going to need each other everytime, no matter what. I’m sure they do realise, but don’t want to admit it, saying that, if any one was in the sh*t, I’m 110% sure the other two services would be there to get’em out of it! If I was in any one of these services, say for example the British army, I’d be mightly proud to have the RAF & RN on my side, there’d be NO OTHER Air Force or Navy in the world I’d want.

And as a British civvy, I am mightily, enormously, monumentally proud of the British Armed Forces, can’t find enough great words to discribe them. No other armed force in this world I’d want!

And as long as Britian remains to exist, we’ll ALWAYS have at least 3 things to be proud of: RAF, RN and the British Army! Fact!

And just like to add: RAF/RN/British Army, only small but ******* me what a punch! Like a Lennox Lewis right uppercut!!:D

Thoroughly enjoyed the video. Puts a lump in yer throat. All the firsts the RN & FAA achieved & yet the enemy within still tries to destroy the pride of the nation.

The Navy have launched a “Fly Navy 100” celebration, I have attached the video link:

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/ConMediaFile.45950/changeNav/6568

Clearly a reply to the RAF’s “One Nation One Airforce” campaign, also I suspect a calculated exercise at pissing off the RAF considering they are celebrating their 90th aniversary.

Wish both services would just grow up sometimes…

NICE VIDEO! (THANKS)

Not to get into to politics. Yet, didn’t the RAF play a large part in the demise of the RN Large Carriers back in the 60’s-70’s. Now some 30 plus years later when the RN is on the verge of getting Aircraft Carriers back. The RAF tries to kill the Aircraft that would fly from them…………..:eek:

The Navy have launched a “Fly Navy 100” celebration, I have attached the video link:

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/ConMediaFile.45950/changeNav/6568

Clearly a reply to the RAF’s “One Nation One Airforce” campaign, also I suspect a calculated exercise at pissing off the RAF considering they are celebrating their 90th aniversary.

Wish both services would just grow up sometimes…

I know what you mean but 100 years of Naval aviation is a legitimate reason for a bit of celebratory pr.

The Navy have launched a “Fly Navy 100” celebration, I have attached the video link:

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/ConMediaFile.45950/changeNav/6568

Clearly a reply to the RAF’s “One Nation One Airforce” campaign, also I suspect a calculated exercise at pissing off the RAF considering they are celebrating their 90th aniversary.

Wish both services would just grow up sometimes…

That is a big part of what they’re fighting about, the article suggests that since the order is probably going to be halved the Navy are expected to get most of them.

Well, personally I never liked the idea of RAF operating from RN Carriers. On the otherhand. I would support the RAF operating F-35B’s from Amphibious Ships in support of troops going ashore. Much like they do in USMC Service. The latest move by the RAF is just simply a grab for power and at the cost of a weaker National Defense of the UK. Really, in poor taste and the Goverment should replace such leaders in my opinion………….. 🙁

That is a big part of what they’re fighting about, the article suggests that since the order is probably going to be halved the Navy are expected to get most of them.

Simple, just let the Royal Navy have all of the F-35B’s…………..Trust me the RAF would come around!;)

The Defence Secretary John Hutton has been forced to call in an Army general to act as a “marriage counsellor” to resolve a bitter dispute between the heads of the Royal Navy and RAF over the future of the Harrier jump jet.

The relationship between the First Sea Lord, Sir Jonathon Band, and the Chief of the Air Staff, Sir Glenn Torpy has become “poisonous” due to a disagreement over the aircraft that is jointly run by both services.

Frustrated at the lack of compromise between the two military leaders, Major General Paul Newton, an Army officer with no flying background, has been appointed to resolve the dispute.

Air Marshal Torpy suggested that the Ministry of Defence could save £1 billion if the Harrier was phased out of service within the next five years with the closure of Joint Force Harrier with its 50 Navy and RAF pilots.

This would have signalled the end of the Royal Navy’s Fleet Air Arm, regarded as the most professional of all air forces, despite the two new aircraft carriers entering service by the end of the next decade.

Admiral Band was incensed by the proposal, which would have meant there would be no Navy pilots to fly off the carriers, and threatened to resign.

But Air Marshal Torpy is thought to have the backing of the Chief of the Defence Staff Sir Jock Stirrup, who was also an RAF pilot.

“Relations between Torpy and Band have become very bitter and very poisonous,” claims a defence source. “General Newton is being used as a marriage counsellor to ensure that the rowing does not become public.”

Major Gen Newton, Director of Development, Concepts and Doctrine in the MOD, is expected to agree with the Navy that a small force of sea-going pilots is vital to Britain’s interests if it wants to project power abroad when he presents his report to a meeting of MoD chiefs today (weds).

There is a suggestion now that Air Marshal Torpy will resign if the Navy wins the bitter turf war, according to Whitehall sources.

The Naval Strike Force will probably become the main Harrier force preparing pilots to fly the ‘fifth generation’ Joint Strike Fighter made in America.

The sticking point for the RAF is that only half of the 150 British JSF are likely now to be ordered with the Navy getting the majority. This would mean the RAF would struggle to get a full replacement for fourth generation Eurofighter Typhoon leaving them without a cutting edge aircraft

A senior Army officer described the dispute as “a bunch of overgrown school boys arguing over who gets to play on a new toy”.

The internecine battles being fought between the Services over a limited defence budget are said to be at the most bitter since the “east of Suez” defence cuts of the Sixties.

The RAF argues that with Afghanistan land-locked and the new carriers not coming into service until at least 2016 there is no current need to have carrier-borne fighters. Once the ships become operational, the RAF would be able to fly off them.

The savings would come through the maintenance contract that has yet to be signed with BAE Systems and by closing RAF Cottesmore when the Harrier force is based.

An MoD spokesman said: “The First Sea Lord and Chief of the Air Staff are committed to working together for the benefit of the Armed Forces and will continue to do so in the future.”“During any planning round a number of options are considered to ensure our spending plans are matching our priorities and delivering value for money. But we do not provide a running commentary on this process. At this stage no decisions have been made.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/4448256/Harrier-dispute-between-Navy-and-RAF-chiefs-sees-Army-marriage-counsellor-called-in.html

Not sure how up to date this story is considering contracts have been awarded for the maintenance of the Pegasus engines.

^^ most of us thought it would be that way in the end.