The Road to Heaven

There are a lot of issues here that you seem to be lumping together John when, in fact, they are completely separate. You really do need to separate your two sides of the coin. What you are suggesting is that a large portion of the clinical staff of the NHS are guilty of failing to display any ‘elementary compassion’ and that is so clearly untrue as to beggar belief.

Your original post was about the LCP, not about the failings at Stafford and the other 15 NHS units now under investigation. Your assertion is quite clear that the LCP is nothing more than a way to hasten the deaths of anyone not seen worthy of keeping alive.

You talk about early death but have you ever considered the concept of timely death?

As for looking outside my ‘professional expertise’ (according to you there doesn’t seem to be any within the NHS) I’ve walked more than the odd mile in those shoes. Having nursed an Aunt, Mother and Uncle through illnesses which claimed their lives and now nursing a Father through the middle stages of dementia, I have some knowledge of palliative care from the perspective of a relative. And yes, I support the implementation of the LCP. I have supported it in the past and will support it again when the time is right for my Father. Not something imposed, rather it is something which was discussed at length. It’s just another facet of the DNR scenario.

Gary made an interesting comment….. Hope is a belief not a medical ailment.

Whilst it is true that hope is not a medical ailment, it is equally true that the absence of hope is just as effective a killer as cancer or IHD. But despite that, there comes a time when all hope is lost and gone forever. Take my Father. In the middle stages of dementia we have already reached the point in which any hope of recovery is gone. There is also no hope of arresting the deterioration. All we have is the realisation that the good days become less frequent and every day I lose a little bit more of my Dad. My Dad will die twice, first mentally, then physically. I consider myself a compassionate man. I don’t want to see a man I love deeply die in terror because he no longer knows who or where he is.

Just as a corollary to the comment Will we ever know just how many patients in need of compassionate medical care have been denied basic hydration and nutrition to bring about an early demise, thus enabling uncaring medical staff to perhaps empty beds, tick boxes and achieve some imposed target? Will we ever know just how many patients have received the greatest of compassion and been allowed to leave this life with the peace and dignity we all hope we will be accorded?

Regards,

kev35

Re 11

MSR 777

I imagine that not just myself but, many others were much moved by your comments.

Many of us have been in your situation, some, on more than one occasion. I do understand that matters of this kind are personal – one cannot make a blanket judgment. I also understand that it is next to impossible to watch someone for whom you deeply care, decline to the point that you eloquently describe.

If it is at all possible, it is the patient who should make the final decision. I strongly believe in medical science and hope. I believe that it is cruel to remove hope especially if the prognosis means that that, is all there is, or ever can be.

Kev 35

I apologise in advance for writing yet more ‘tosh’. Whether it was an improperly administered LCP or medical or nursing neglect, the end result was the same – premature and un-necessary death. Whether it was lack of expertise, laziness, inattention, incapacity, lack of basic humanitarian concern and compassion, the end result was the same – early death. Two sides of the same coin.

I’m aware that the LCP has been used for many years. Will we ever know just how many patients in need of compassionate medical care have been denied basic hydration and nutrition to bring about an early demise, thus enabling uncaring medical staff to perhaps empty beds, tick boxes and achieve some imposed target? Two sides of the same coin.

I ask you to look at this outside of your professional expertise. Look at it from the view of a concerned parent or relative or friend. Many have complained on TV or in the Press, that what was proposed in terms of the LCP was not properly explained. That there was pressure. That there was undue haste.

Something quite alarming has been going on in our hospitals and we haven’t been aware of it. It’s not “failure of the management to implement safe levels of care”, it is the failure of the medical staff to desplay any elementary compassion.

Andy in Beds.

Don’t offer me abuse – it’s not nice. Where there’s life there’s hope. Where there is no life, there is no hope. As long as you breathe, there is hope one way or another that you will escape from your depression. It’s my wish that this comes to pass.

, knowing that where there’s life there’s hope.

That’s an interesting one, a pulse indicates life but the brain may be dead.
Hope also depends on the mental ability to “want” to fight through physical as well as a mental setback.
Some of the most talented,rich people have given up on hope even though there may be nothing wrong with them and others have fought with every bit of strength mental and physical against all odds.
Hope is a belief not a medical ailment.

Having suffered with depression on and off most of my adult life and with a Winter which has been most trying (an attack which lasted 38 straight days), I’d quite happily go tomorrow.
I’ve always believed the individual should retain the right to decide.
I’ve seen a bit of death up close in my time too.

and John

knowing that where there’s life there’s hope.

That’s sh*t of the most crass nature and you know it.

I had to have my 2 dogs put down last year due to illness.They both went peacefully in my arms being stroked and talked to all the time and told how much we loved them.
Rewind 15 years i had to watch my friend fight and eventually die of cancer.Until the last days he was in real absolute pain only then right at the end he was given enough painkillers to effectively “put him out” so he wasn’t aware of the pain.
Back to today,my blind ,bed bound,with partially dementia 95 year old Nan wants to die.She is a bag of bones and just won’t die,i love her dearly and wish i could do the same for her as i did lovingly for my dogs.
I hope if i am ever in so much pain i have the chance to choose to go painlessly at my choice of time.

John.

The abuse of the LCP in no way relates to the appalling standards of care at Stafford. The former is the deliberate withdrawal of treatment in an attempt to hasten death. What happened at Stafford was absolute neglect brought about by the failure of the management to implement safe levels of care. There is no comparison and in no way can these issues be considered to be two sides of the same coin.

Regards,

kev35

Last year, my 35yr old brother was diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease, or MND. For those that don’t know, this disease destroys the nervous system, and is always fatal. In the space of a year, by brother has been transformed from a healthy 6 foot tall landscape gardener, to someone who is now chair or bed bound, unable to feed himself, and no longer capable of taking care of his own hygiene. Some sufferers are diagnosed and dead in as little as 6 months. some, like Stephen Hawking, go on for many years. Long term sufferers such as him, are extremely rare. Doctors can never forecast the speed of the progression of the condition, or which functions will be affected first.

He has told me that he is no longer afraid of death, but is terrified of what he will go through in the final stages of his condition. It’s a sad fact, that human beings are kept alive in circumstance that, if the sufferer were a dog, would rightly land the owner in court, or worse, for cruelty. Until now, I had not really thought much about euthanasia, but having watched the steady, but relentless deterioration of my brother, I am now an unashamed supporter of it, as is he.

It’s all very well folks going on about the preservation of life at all costs, irrespective of the wishes, and the amount of suffering, being endured by the patient. I’m sure I’m not alone here, in having to have watched a loved one, being waisted by a cruel, and devastating condition, or by the ravages of old age related conditions. If you have, then maybe you’ll agree, that the sufferer who is of sound mind, should have every right to arrange to die with dignity, at a time of their own choosing. Personally, I am amazed that many believe, that the sufferer should not be allowed that basic right. It’s high time that the law in this country, should be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century in respect of voluntary euthanasia. There but for the grace of God…………….

Re 9

More ‘tosh’:

Two sides of the same coin.

Mon. 4th March. 8.0pm Dispatches. Channel 4. Title: ‘Death on the Wards’

Now, probably on ‘CatchUp’

Probably just more ‘tosh’.

So, as is quite usual, the media is making a tremendous fuss about a problem that doesn’t exist ?

Funny that.

The nub of my ‘tosh’ was the question of abuse of the LCP. I don’t know why we ahould be worried. Certainly, Kev 35 thinks that we have no cause for concern.

I wonder if that hospital in Staffordshire that is now so prominently in the news would agree?

Note 3rd para. of my ‘tosh’.

The problems at Stafford, and I suspect many other hospitals, are not to do with the instigation of the LCP, premature or otherwise. Rather, it was to do with the complete and total breakdown of provision of even the most basic care needs. It wasn’t so much to do with people who were terminally ill dying sooner, more that people were dying who were expected to live. That’s a whole different thing.

The LCP has been in existence for many years, it just wasn’t called that.

regards,

kev35

Would you want this for yourself or your relatives.

Despite all our efforts to honour his wishes, by enforcing his living will, we had to watch as my father died through the final 6 months of terminal cancer. I would not wish that on any sufferer or any relative if there was a better, more dignified way.

So, as is quite usual, the media is making a tremendous fuss about a problem that doesn’t exist ?

Funny that.

The nub of my ‘tosh’ was the question of abuse of the LCP. I don’t know why we ahould be worried. Certainly, Kev 35 thinks that we have no cause for concern.

I wonder if that hospital in Staffordshire that is now so prominently in the news would agree?

Note 3rd para. of my ‘tosh’.

I was hoping for a thoughtful and eloquent contribution to this thread from Kev35.

I have not been disappointed.

Well said, Sir.

Having seen life at any cost I watched my Mother die an Undignified death with cancer in screaming agony as a bag of bones.(that was 1966)

My Father in Law died peacefully of the same complaint in 1999 when all treatment was stopped except that which made him comfortable.

Be in no doubt both were riddled with cancer and no amount of treatment would give any hope of a cure or recovery

You can guess what I would want.

Question: Would you want this for yourself or your relatives or would you want to try to continue, knowing that where there’s life there’s hope.

Ignoring the asinine platitude at the end of your sentence, a whole-hearted “Yes, if that is what I / they want”

Moggy

What utter tosh!

“Question: Would you want this for yourself or your relatives or would you want to try to continue, knowing that where there’s life there’s hope.”

In a previous life, and for a number of years, I was a Nurse. I have seen a great deal of death. It doesn’t always come like a thief in the night. It comes, more often than not, in the form of a torturer, stealing life a few extra heartbeats at a time. On many occasions, maybe more than you can imagine, hope ends a long, long time before the final breath is drawn. I have seen people die in agony and abject terror, bereft of any hope and dignity and all because the withdrawal of treatment and support was initiated too late.

“I admit to a bias. I believe that the duty of medical practioners is the maintenance of life come what may and the end of life should be as natural as possible.”

I was under the obviously misguided apprehension that the first tenet of the Hippocratic Oath was to do no harm. On many occasions, the maintenance of life when all hope is gone is both harmful and unnatural.

“The Pathway relies on the withdrawal of fluids and nutrition and the administration of strong analgesics to smooth what is often a rocky road to the end. It is said that the administration of the Pathway is often premature.”

Is there enough empirical evidence to draw that conclusion? Who, other than the person dying, can actually qualify and quantify whether the administration of the Pathway is premature? It may come as a surprise to you, but not to anyone with any experience on the front line of the NHS, that the LCP, in one form or other, has been practiced for many years.

Regards,

kev35

If the road to Hell is paved with good intentions, is the road to Heaven paved with bad intentions?

Just thought I’d ask…..